Author Topic: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?  (Read 14284 times)

Joe Carillo

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Question from curious cat, new Forum member (May 19, 2010):

Hi! May I ask a favor? Which of the following ESL sentences below are grammatically correct? I’d also appreciate it if you could include your thoughts behind your answers as well.

(1)
May I ask a favor of you?
May I ask a favor from you?

(2)
He is smarter than any boy in class.
He is smarter than any other boy in class.

(3)
I will be there by next Friday.
I will be there on Friday next.

(4)
I prefer tea to milk.
I prefer tea over milk.

(5)
Completing the race, he collapsed.
On completing the race, he collapsed.

(6)
While sitting in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.
While he was sitting in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.
While he sat in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.

(7)
She shall answer my question.
She will answer my question.

(8 )
This is he.
This is him.

(9)
You shout at me as though I were deaf.
You shout at me as if I were deaf.

(10)
I told myself to stay calm.
I said to myself, “stay calm.”

(11)
People seemed to have known the use of fire in those days.
People seem to have known the use of fire in those days.

(12)
Regine and myself thought it best to leave.
Regine and I thought it best to leave.

My reply to curiouscat:

I have set in boldface the grammatically correct construction in each set of sentences:

(1)
May I ask a favor of you?
May I ask a favor from you?

The phrasal verb “ask a favor from” is the accepted conventional usage. Also a generally accepted alternative is the following construction that drops the preposition:
May I ask you a favor?

(2)
He is smarter than any boy in class.
He is smarter than any other boy in class.

“Any other boy” is correct because it excludes the boy being compared to the rest of the boys in the class; “any boy” is incorrect because it includes the boy being compared to himself, which is an absurd way of comparing.

(3)
I will be there by next Friday.
I will be there on Friday next.

The first one is the generally used construction, but the second one—even if not generally used—is also grammatically correct and acceptable.

(4)
I prefer tea to milk.
I prefer tea over milk.

The phrasal verb “prefer tea to milk” is the accepted conventional usage; on the other hand, “prefer tea over milk” is also grammatically correct but sounds very officious and formal.

(5)
Completing the race, he collapsed.
On completing the race, he collapsed.

Since the collapse happened after completion of the race, the second sentence is the correct one. On the other hand, the first sentence indicates that the collapse happened while the player was still in the process of completing the race, so he or she couldn’t have completed the race.

(6)
While sitting in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.
While he was sitting in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.
While he sat in the restaurant, he was attacked by the criminals.

All three are grammatically correct, but the first is the smoothest, most streamlined, and most idiomatic construction. The second and third uses the pronoun “he” in both the main clause and the subordinate clause, revealing less familiarity with the more advanced English grammatical forms.

(7)
She shall answer my question.
She will answer my question.

The second sentence is American English; the first, a British English construction. Both are grammatically correct.

(8 )
This is he.
This is him.

The first is the scrupulously grammatically correct construction, but the second—although grammatically flawed because “him” is in the objective case—is more  idiomatic and more commonly used..

(9)
You shout at me as though I were deaf.
You shout at me as if I were deaf.

The second sentence is the generally accepted conditional usage.

(10)
I told myself to stay calm.
I said to myself, “stay calm.”

Both are grammatically correct. In the second sentence, however, the “s” in “stay should be capitalized to indicate that “stay calm” is a quoted sentence in a sentence, as follows:

I said to myself, “Stay calm.”


(11)
People seemed to have known the use of fire in those days.
People seem to have known the use of fire in those days.

Since the supposition was made by people in the past, “seemed” is the appropriate tense for the verb.

(12)
Regine and myself thought it best to leave.
Regine and I thought it best to leave.

The first sentence is grammatically wrong because it wrongly uses the reflexive “myself” for what should be the nominative case “I.”
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 08:48:08 PM by Joe Carillo »

curiouscat

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 06:03:19 AM »
Hi Joe,

    thank you for answering my questions! I appreciate your feedback since you included not only the explanation but what is also considered grammatically correct/incorrect but is generally accepted, other versions of acceptable usage and subtle details such as the capitalization when quoting. (It wasn't that apparent to me until you pointed it out)

     Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm including this disclaimer as it may appear that this list of questions came from a school assignment, (I guess because of how it's presented) but I assure you these are taken from several sources: 1) A book on Common Errors in English which is designed to have an incorrect and correct entry.  2) My own thoughts and 3) from local broadsheets.

       

     

maxsims

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 01:04:42 PM »
(7)
She shall answer my question.
She will answer my question.

The second sentence is American English; the first, a British English construction. Both are grammatically correct.

Are you sure about this Anglo-American difference, Joe?   I can find no web resource to back it up, and four major dictionaries make no mention of an international difference.   And, the dictionaries confirm that there is (or should be) a difference in meaning between these two sentences.

Oxford
shall
  • modal verb (3rd sing. present shall) 1 (in the first person) expressing the future tense. 2 expressing a strong assertion or intention. 3 expressing an instruction or command. 4 used in questions indicating offers or suggestions.
  — USAGE Strictly speaking shall should be used with I and we to form the future tense, as in I shall be late, while will should be used with you, he, she, it, and they, as in she will not be there. This, however, is reversed when strong determination is being expressed, as in I will not tolerate this , and you shall go to school. In speech the distinction tends to be obscured, through the use of the contracted forms I’ll, she’ll, etc.

Cambridge
shall
modal verb ( CERTAINLY WILL )
  strong form /ʃæl/weak form /ʃəl/ mv
used to say that something certainly will or must happen, or that you are determined that something will happen
Don't worry, I shall be there to meet the train.
formal The school rules state that no child shall be allowed out of the school during the day, unless accompanied by an adult.
You shall go to the ball, Cinderella

F & W
More or less follows the Oxford and Cambridge definitions, with the addendum:
*shall, will:  the formal view on he use of shall and will is that to indicate simple futurity, shall is used in the first person, will in the second and third; their roles are reversed to express determination, command, inevitability etc., while in questions, the choice depends on the form expected in the answer.   These rules apply to American usage only at the most formal level.

Merriam-Webster is of much the same view.


Joe Carillo

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 02:16:32 PM »
My reading of H.W. Fowler’s long treatise on the usage of “shall” and “will” (The King’s English, 2nd ed., Chapter II.Syntax), along with the usage note for “shall” below by the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition, gives me the distinct, unavoidable impression that “shall” is essentially British English usage that American English largely avoids in favor of “will.” This impression is also corroborated by the long but non-expert discussion of “shall” and “will” in Wikipedia, which cites various sources from the United States and the United Kingdom. Although I couldn’t find a reliable reference that categorically says that “She shall answer my question” is British usage, I am persuaded by the preponderance of my readings that this is indeed the case. I’d be glad to change my mind if some reliable authority could be cited that categorically says otherwise.

Below is the full text of the usage note on “shall” by the AHD:

Usage Note: The traditional rules for using shall and will prescribe a highly complicated pattern of use in which the meanings of the forms change according to the person of the subject. In the first person, shall is used to indicate simple futurity: I shall (not will) have to buy another ticket. In the second and third persons, the same sense of futurity is expressed by will: The comet will (not shall) return in 87 years. You will (not shall)probably encounter some heavy seas when you round the point. The use of will in the first person and of shall in the second and third may express determination, promise, obligation, or permission, depending on the context. Thus I will leave tomorrow indicates that the speaker is determined to leave; You and she shall leave tomorrow is likely to be interpreted as a command. The sentence You shall have your money expresses a promise (“I will see that you get your money”), whereas You will have your money makes a simple prediction. • Such, at least, are the traditional rules. The English and some traditionalists about usage are probably the only people who follow these rules, and then not with perfect consistency. In America, people who try to adhere to them run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty. Americans normally use will to express most of the senses reserved for shall in English usage (Boldfacing mine). Americans use shall chiefly in first person invitations and questions that request an opinion or agreement, such as Shall we go?and in certain fixed expressions, such as We shall overcome. In formal style, Americans use shall to express an explicit obligation, as in Applicants shall provide a proof of residence, though this sense is also expressed by must or should. In speech the distinction that the English signal by the choice of shall or will may be rendered by stressing the auxiliary, as in I will leave tomorrow (“I intend to leave”); by choosing another auxiliary, such as must or have to; or by using an adverb such as certainly. • In addition to its sense of obligation, shall also can convey high moral seriousness that derives in part from its extensive use in the King James Bible, as in “Righteousness shall go before him and shall set us in the way of his steps” (Ps 85:13) and “He that shall humble himself shall be exalted” (Mt 23:12). The prophetic overtones that shall bears with it have no doubt led to its use in some of the loftiest rhetoric in English. This may be why Lincoln chose to use it instead of will in the Gettysburg Address: “government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.”

You can read Wikipedia’s detailed discussion of the usage of “shall” and “will” by clicking this link.

Do let me know what you think after going over these resources.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 02:20:53 PM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2010, 08:54:44 AM »
My word!   You've learned a lot since last year when you answered my question:

What about the "rule" that states that it is "shall" for the first person and "will" for the second and third persons when intention is expressed, but "will" for the first person and "shall" for the second and third persons when determination is expressed...?

with:

I'm not aware that such rules exist--not in the American English standard anyway. All that was taught to me in grammar school and was later fortified by continuing usage over the years is that "shall" indicates a more determined desire to do something than "will." I haven't come across an English grammar book that specifically prescribes person-based usage for these modals. 

Do you now think that your explanations of "shall" and "will" in "The Grammar of Doubt and Uncertainty" ("English Plain and Simple) match those of the AHD?

Joe Carillo

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 09:24:59 PM »
Question from curious cat, new Forum member (May 19, 2010):

Hi! May I ask a favor? Which of the following ESL sentences below are grammatically correct? I’d also appreciate it if you could include your thoughts behind your answers as well.

(11)
People seemed to have known the use of fire in those days.
People seem to have known the use of fire in those days.

Since the supposition is being made by people in the present and not those in the past, “seem” is the appropriate tense for the verb.

(12)
Regine and myself thought it best to leave.
Regine and I thought it best to leave.

The second sentence is grammatically wrong because it wrongly uses the reflexive “myself” for what should be the nominative case “I.”



Please note the following corrections below to my erroneous comments to Items #11 and #12 in the list of 12 ESL sentences posted by curious cat last May 19:

(11)
People seemed to have known the use of fire in those days.
People seem to have known the use of fire in those days.

Since the supposition was made by people in the past, “seemed” is the appropriate tense for the verb.

(12)
Regine and myself thought it best to leave.
Regine and I thought it best to leave.

The first sentence is grammatically wrong because it wrongly uses the reflexive “myself” for what should be the nominative case “I.”

My attention regarding these two items was called by Forum member maxsims in an e-mail he sent to me tonight. He didn't specify what the problems were, but I found my comments on these two items erroneous on closer reading and I would like to apologize to the Forum members for them.

kanajlo

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 09:50:00 PM »

"F & W
More or less follows the Oxford and Cambridge definitions, with the addendum:
*shall, will:  the formal view on he use of shall and will is that to indicate simple futurity, shall is used in the first person, will in the second and third; their roles are reversed to express determination, command, inevitability etc., while in questions, the choice depends on the form expected in the answer.   These rules apply to American usage only at the most formal level.

Merriam-Webster is of much the same view."



While formal usage makes distinctions between shall and will, those distinctions are becoming less important as the word "shall" is on its way to extinction in everyday speech in the US.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 11:14:18 PM by kanajlo »

Joe Carillo

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Re: Which of the ESL sentences below are grammatically correct?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 09:11:12 AM »
I share your thoughts about the usage of "shall."