Author Topic: Relative Markers: As Determiners and As Pronouns  (Read 6834 times)

Michael E. Galario

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Relative Markers: As Determiners and As Pronouns
« on: August 24, 2016, 02:05:10 PM »
Hi sir,

I am currently studying the different types of determiners and I got stuck in relative markers used as determiners. Things got mixed up in my grey matter while trying to analyze sentences.

Just want to ask for clarification about my observation on the relative markers function in a sentence. For this inquiry, I would refer to the group of Relative Pronouns as Relative Markers so as to avoid confusion to our forum members as this Relative Markers assume different functions in a sentence depending on context. I'd like to find out if their functions can  be defined by how they are structured in sentences.

A relative marker can function as a determiner and as a pronoun in a sentence. My understanding of a relative marker used as a determiner is that it should premodify noun (same with the other types of determiner) as in the structure below:        

                            Determiner + Noun

                             The girl in the mirror is my friend

                             Where: The words "the" and "my" premodify the nouns that follow them.

                        
                           This is the same pattern/structure that I am also expecting from a relative determiner.
                           Also, for a relative marker to function as a determiner it must satisfy the requirements
                           in writing an adjective clause and those are:

                             1. There should be a relative marker.
                             2. There should be a subject and a verb following the marker.
                             3.  The clause formed should answer what, which, how many and how much.


                            Structure: Noun + Relative marker + Noun + subject


                           Examples:           They predicted THAT john would have to resign.
                                                     I will show you which house is mine.
                                                     I'll take whatever money they've got
                                                                
                       Other examples are:

                        The tree, WHOSE branches were all dry, had to be cut down.
                        That is the man WHOSE dog was in your yard
                                            
            
                       As a pronoun, the relative marker can de identified by its two structures:
      
                       A. Noun + Relative Markers + Verb
                        
                                An atheist is a man WHO HAS no invisible means of support.
                                The woman WHO called me yesterday was my mother.
                                The man THAT CAME to the office yesterday was my brother.
                                I told you about the woman WHO LIVES next door.

                        B. Noun + Relative Marker + Personal Pronoun + Verb

                           The bike that I bought last week was stolen.

                            The example under B is a relative marker which is pronoun in function.
                            THAT modifies the noun bike.                        


  Questions: Are my observations correct?
                

                             Also please see the given sentences below:

                 A.  Although I respected what the teacher said, I disagreed with his conclusion.

                           "What the teacher said" is a noun clause. Can we say that for noun clauses, if
                            the relative marker precedes a noun it's function is a determiner.


                 B.  Anyone who says that English teachers are boring will be punished.

                     "Who says that English teachers are boring" is a relative clause. WHO functions only as
                       relative pronoun.

                      " That English teachers are boring" is a noun clause. That functions as a determiner.

Question: Have I properly Identified the functions of determiners in the given examples sir?

                 Follow-up: What about in the below construction sir?

                                  What I need is love.

                                  "What I need" is a noun clause but the word that follows " What"  is a pronoun. Is
                                  the word " What" determinative in function? If not, what is the function of the word
                                  "What" in the given statement above?

Thank you sir.

                    

                
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:40:27 PM by Michael E. Galario »
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Michael E. Galario

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Re: Relative Markers: As Determiners and As Pronouns
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2016, 01:25:57 PM »
Hi sir Joe,

I quoted my post here to make it active. May I know your thoughts about the below queries?

Thank you.

Hi sir,

I am currently studying the different types of determiners and I got stuck in relative markers used as determiners. Things got mixed up in my grey matter while trying to analyze sentences.

Just want to ask for clarification about my observation on the relative markers function in a sentence. For this inquiry, I would refer to the group of Relative Pronouns as Relative Markers so as to avoid confusion to our forum members as this Relative Markers assume different functions in a sentence depending on context. I'd like to find out if their functions can  be defined by how they are structured in sentences.

A relative marker can function as a determiner and as a pronoun in a sentence. My understanding of a relative marker used as a determiner is that it should premodify noun (same with the other types of determiner) as in the structure below:        

                            Determiner + Noun

                             The girl in the mirror is my friend

                             Where: The words "the" and "my" premodify the nouns that follow them.

                        
                           This is the same pattern/structure that I am also expecting from a relative determiner.
                           Also, for a relative marker to function as a determiner it must satisfy the requirements
                           in writing an adjective clause and those are:

                             1. There should be a relative marker.
                             2. There should be a subject and a verb following the marker.
                             3.  The clause formed should answer what, which, how many and how much.


                            Structure: Noun + Relative marker + Noun + subject


                           Examples:           They predicted THAT john would have to resign.
                                                     I will show you which house is mine.
                                                     I'll take whatever money they've got
                                                                
                       Other examples are:

                        The tree, WHOSE branches were all dry, had to be cut down.
                        That is the man WHOSE dog was in your yard
                                            
            
                       As a pronoun, the relative marker can de identified by its two structures:
      
                       A. Noun + Relative Markers + Verb
                        
                                An atheist is a man WHO HAS no invisible means of support.
                                The woman WHO called me yesterday was my mother.
                                The man THAT CAME to the office yesterday was my brother.
                                I told you about the woman WHO LIVES next door.

                        B. Noun + Relative Marker + Personal Pronoun + Verb

                           The bike that I bought last week was stolen.

                            The example under B is a relative marker which is pronoun in function.
                            THAT modifies the noun bike.                        


  Questions: Are my observations correct?
                

                             Also please see the given sentences below:

                 A.  Although I respected what the teacher said, I disagreed with his conclusion.

                           "What the teacher said" is a noun clause. Can we say that for noun clauses, if
                            the relative marker precedes a noun it's function is a determiner.


                 B.  Anyone who says that English teachers are boring will be punished.

                     "Who says that English teachers are boring" is a relative clause. WHO functions only as
                       relative pronoun.

                      " That English teachers are boring" is a noun clause. That functions as a determiner.

Question: Have I properly Identified the functions of determiners in the given examples sir?

                 Follow-up: What about in the below construction sir?

                                  What I need is love.

                                  "What I need" is a noun clause but the word that follows " What"  is a pronoun. Is
                                  the word " What" determinative in function? If not, what is the function of the word
                                  "What" in the given statement above?

Thank you sir.

                    

                
"The only thing that's worse than not knowing how to do something is to do something wrong while believing that it's right."

Remember: We may know something but definitely not everything.

Joe Carillo

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Re: Relative Markers: As Determiners and As Pronouns
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 11:32:38 PM »
Michael, I'm afraid that your request for clarification regarding relative markers is too technical and too specialized to be discussed here. I'd like to maintain this Forum as a general-interest venue for English grammar and usage so I have to beg off from going into the highly detailed and highly involved discussion that your request will entail.

Michael E. Galario

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Re: Relative Markers: As Determiners and As Pronouns
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 09:20:19 AM »
no worries, sir. ☺☺☺

I'll try my best to figure it out. I'll set it aside for the time being and continue on my study of the reported speech. Once I have somehow had a good grasp of it, I'll get back to determiners and study this topic in details. ☺☺☺
"The only thing that's worse than not knowing how to do something is to do something wrong while believing that it's right."

Remember: We may know something but definitely not everything.