Is it Past Perfect?

[curiouscat]

Hi Joe,


    i was watching Britain's Got Talent the other day, after Janey Cutler's performance, host 1 goes out on stage to usher her back, and on their way out, Janey gives a bow, host 1 bows to the crowd as well.

    Host 2 waiting backstage sees this and says:


    "What's he bowing for? He hadn't done anything?"


Is hadn't done considered past perfect? I mean, it's usually used prior to another past action right? or is this a grammatical exception of some sort?


Thanks!

[hill roberts]

Hello, Curiouscat, It may surprise you but those two young men, Ant and Dec come from the north of England, Newcastle, where English is distinct, in terms of accent and more often than not, grammar, and where the double negative, "I don't know nothing" is as common as the light of day.  It doesn't give me pleasure to remind Forum members here that the cut-glass British accent mainly exists in period drama; or where the upper class sounding accent that comes out of the mouths of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Liz Hurley or Hugh Grant is studied and they weren't born to speak that way as a rule althought mingling with their own high society set is contagious; where the expertise of the BBC has been remarkable to a certain degree that over the years, those watching BBC-produced films were coached to speak that way. Do come to the UK if you wishto get a crash course in posh, guttural and weird accents. You won't run out of things to say after some sight and sound observation, rather something that would make you realise that English is spoken there with varied intonations. If it's any consolation, Sting comes from Newcastle and changed his accent from geordie(Newcastle) to posh, to be better understood and adored by those who love to listen to a posh accent. The Beatles, with their working class background stood their ground though, by retaining their scouse(Liverpudlian) accent.

[Joe Carillo]

Hi Joe,

    i was watching Britain's Got Talent the other day, after Janey Cutler's performance, host 1 goes out on stage to usher her back, and on their way out, Janey gives a bow, host 1 bows to the crowd as well.

    Host 2 waiting backstage sees this and says:


    "What's he bowing for? He hadn't done anything?"


Is hadn't done considered past perfect? I mean, it's usually used prior to another past action right? or is this a grammatical exception of some sort?

Strictly speaking, this remark by Host 2 is grammatically wrong:  “What’s he bowing for? He hadn’t done anything?” The second sentence erroneously uses the past perfect “hadn’t done” for an action that should be in the present perfect, “hasn’t done.”

As we know, the past perfect tense is used to indicate an action that’s completed with respect to another past action or event, as in the following sentences: “I had prepared for the trip, but did not remember to renew my passport.” “She had been to Geneva before she reached the age of ten.” “We had just bought our tickets when word came that the show would be cancelled.” “Few animals had survived the forest fire even if it was put out in only two days.” “Many businessmen had coveted at least 1% of the China market until they found out how difficult getting it was.”

There’s a baseline use for the past perfect, however, that doesn’t require the explicit use of another action completed before another past event, as in this sentence: “The heavy rains had lasted a month.” It states an action that began and ended sometime in the past, as opposed to the present perfect “The heavy rains has lasted a month,” which suggests a condition that began in the past and has continued to the present. I think this is where Host 2 got mixed up in his use of the perfect tense. He said, “What’s he bowing for? He hadn’t done anything?” That’s in the past perfect, but the action he was commenting on had continued up the moment of his speaking, so it should be in the present perfect instead, “What’s he bowing for? He hasn’t done anything?”

The present perfect tense, by definition, denotes action that’s completed with respect to the present, but precisely when isn't specified. Host 2’s remark is therefore in the same league as the following sentence in the present perfect: “I have prepared for the trip.” “She has been to Geneva.” “We have just taken the test.” “These people have never tasted caviar.” “Few animals have survived the huge forest fire.” “Many businessmen have coveted at least 1% of the China market.” (When you add a timeline to a present perfect sentence, however, it takes any of the simple tenses instead: “I prepared for the trip last night.” “I’m preparing for the trip right now.” “I’ll prepare for the trip this coming weekend.”) 

In formal writing or speaking, of course, Host 2’s bungling of the perfect tenses is inexcusable, but I think we should be a little bit tolerant when it comes to people speaking English off the cuff. Indeed, in actual conversations, one has to be a consummate grammarian to be always scrupulously correct in using the perfect tenses, but I think it’s a fact of life that few people can attain that state of grammatical nirvana. In the case of comedians and TV talk show hosts, in particular, I tend to be very forgiving when they mix up in their English grammar or usage every now and then. It’s a healthy reassurance to us that they are speaking extemporaneously and not just thoughtlessly mouthing off some script that they had memorized down to the last word or comma.

[curiouscat]

Hello, Curiouscat, It may surprise you but those two young men, Ant and Dec come from the north of England, Newcastle, where English is distinct, in terms of accent and more often than not, grammar, and where the double negative, "I don't know nothing" is as common as the light of day.  It doesn't give me pleasure to remind Forum members here that the cut-glass British accent mainly exists in period drama; or where the upper class sounding accent that comes out of the mouths of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Liz Hurley or Hugh Grant is studied and they weren't born to speak that way as a rule althought mingling with their own high society set is contagious; where the expertise of the BBC has been remarkable to a certain degree that over the years, those watching BBC-produced films were coached to speak that way. Do come to the UK if you wishto get a crash course in posh, guttural and weird accents. You won't run out of things to say after some sight and sound observation, rather something that would make you realise that English is spoken there with varied intonations. If it's any consolation, Sting comes from Newcastle and changed his accent from geordie(Newcastle) to posh, to be better understood and adored by those who love to listen to a posh accent. The Beatles, with their working class background stood their ground though, by retaining their scouse(Liverpudlian) accent.

Hi Hill Roberts, thanks for the bit of trivia there! I didn't know such accents existed or that the English celebrities had to be coached to speak posh as well. The only other English accent I know of is the cockney accent (reminiscent of My Fair Lady). I searched geordie and scouse on youtube.  I wanted one word...just one word. Very interesting though.

[curiouscat]

[/quote]

There’s a baseline use for the past perfect, however, that doesn’t require the explicit use of another action completed before another past event, as in this sentence: “The heavy rains had lasted a month.” It states an action that began and ended sometime in the past, as opposed to the present perfect “The heavy rains has lasted a month,” which suggests a condition that began in the past and has continued to the present. I think this is where Host 2 got mixed up in his use of the perfect tense. He said, “What’s he bowing for? He hadn’t done anything?” That’s in the past perfect, but the action he was commenting on had continued up the moment of his speaking, so it should be in the present perfect instead, “What’s he bowing for? He hasn’t done anything?”

[/quote]

Hi Joe,

   thanks for the elaborate explanation. I'm finding this very interesting and informative. So just to rephrase for understanding, Host 2 is wrong to use the past perfect tense mainly because he started his comment with, "What's he bowing for" which indicates the action still happening.

   Let me present 2 situations.

1) I will modify the same situation presented by narrating what Host 2 is seeing as he said what he said (or is it supposed to be "as he said what he had said"?  ):
 
Host 2 sees Host 1 bowing...Host 2 then looks at the camera:
Host 2: "What's he bowing for?" Looks at Host 1 again seeing him standing upright now walking toward him...Host 2 looks at the camera again:
Host 2: "He hadn't done anything!"

In this case, as a viewer seeing this play-by-play, would he still be wrong in using the past perfect now that Host 1 is no longer bowing, but had already finished bowing?


2) Host 1 already ushered the old lady backstage (or should the exception for Past Perfect be applicable here: "Host 1 had already ushered the lady backstage") , and Host 2 then makes this comment: "What did he bow for, he hadn't done anything!"

[curiouscat]

Another question I have is:

Would the meaning change if instead saying “The heavy rains had lasted a month”, you'd say "The heavy rains lasted a month"?

If the answer is no, then is it safe to assume that in this case, the simple past is much simpler to use in extemporaneous speech instead of Past Perfect?

[curiouscat]

While searching Youtube to indulge myself with the interestingly unfamiliar cockney accent which I was reminded of reading this post, (thanks to Hill Roberts) I chanced upon this short clip from a talk show: Times Talks. The interviewer, a New York Times writer, Charles McGrath said this to Michael Caine:

"I think the first movie Americans saw you in, and recognized you in, was Alfie, and it was remarkable for the movie, but also for Alfie's cockneyness, because I think that this was the first time we had seen this in America

In this case, is the Past Perfect used here justified because some past event already happened: "it was remarkable for the movie". It doesn't seem to make any sense for two reasons:

1) It was remarkable for the movie doesn't express a completed action. The verb was is just an auxiliary verb right?
2) The past perfect phrase, as a dependent clause, sounds like it's just modifying "it was remarkable for the movie", so, does this fall under the exception? 

Thanks,
Curious Cat

[hill roberts]

Hello Curiouscat, you're welcome. Glad you liked the trivia. Well, if it's cockney accent you want, all you have to do is listen to Len Goodman, the Head judge of Dancing With The Stars. Len is a typical cockney Londoner, like Michael Caine. Those two young men, Ant and Dec of Britain's Got Talent also have a typical geordie accent. However, if you have already heard of Cheryl Cole, one of the judges of the  X-Factor, the pretty girl sitting next to Simon Cowell, then you needn't go far.Sadly, Simon has told her to "change" her accent, or at least, modify it a bit, for her to be understood by a wider audience. The BBC call it RP, or Received Pronunciation when those learning English follow this system. In the past, the BBC wouldn't even accept reporters/correspondents with a regional accent since they had a rule before that everyone spoke with the same accent. But this was changed drastically since many complained. 

[Joe Carillo]

Hi Joe,

   thanks for the elaborate explanation. I'm finding this very interesting and informative. So just to rephrase for understanding, Host 2 is wrong to use the past perfect tense mainly because he started his comment with, "What's he bowing for" which indicates the action still happening.

   Let me present 2 situations.

1) I will modify the same situation presented by narrating what Host 2 is seeing as he said what he said (or is it supposed to be "as he said what he had said"?  ):
 
Host 2 sees Host 1 bowing...Host 2 then looks at the camera:
Host 2: "What's he bowing for?" Looks at Host 1 again seeing him standing upright now walking toward him...Host 2 looks at the camera again:
Host 2: "He hadn't done anything!"

In this case, as a viewer seeing this play-by-play, would he still be wrong in using the past perfect now that Host 1 is no longer bowing, but had already finished bowing?

Yes, Host 2 would still be wrong in using the past perfect even if Host 1 is no longer bowing. The time frame for the present perfect covers not only to the emerging present but also the time immediately preceding it, whether within the minute, the hour, or even within a day or longer more depending on the context. For instance, someone can say “I have called her attention to the matter” even if the action was taken yesterday or even last week; the time frame for the present tense is that fluid so long as the time frame extends to the moment of speaking.

Another thing about movies and TV: Unless clearly indicated by the continuity that considerable time has elapsed from one scene to another, it is to be presumed that everything on the screen is happening and unfolding in the present time. So, any dialogue that refers to the immediate past in the situation shown on screen will have to be stated in the present perfect, as in the line in question here, “He hasn’t done anything!”

2) Host 1 already ushered the old lady backstage (or should the exception for Past Perfect be applicable here: "Host 1 had already ushered the lady backstage") , and Host 2 then makes this comment: "What did he bow for, he hadn't done anything!"

The tense will still be in the present perfect, based on the earlier explanation above.

Another question I have is:

Would the meaning change if instead saying “The heavy rains had lasted a month”, you'd say "The heavy rains lasted a month"?

If the answer is no, then is it safe to assume that in this case, the simple past is much simpler to use in extemporaneous speech instead of Past Perfect?

Yes, the meaning would change when the simple tense is used instead of the past perfect. When the past perfect is used, as in “The heavy rains had lasted a month,” the speaker is speaking of the heavy rains continuing for a month sometime in the indefinite past, with the action usually (but not always) reckoned from the occurrence of another past action. Example: “I remember that watery time in my youth. The heavy rains had lasted a month before they dissipated into mild showers.”

The simple past is indeed much simpler to use than the past perfect, but it’s not as if we have a choice given a particular action in the past. We use the simple past if we are speaking of a past action from the standpoint of the unfolding present; the past perfect, if we are speaking of a past action from the standpoint of a moment sometime in the indefinite past.

[curiouscat]

I see. So, even after a week later, if Host 2 were to comment on it, he'd have to still use the present perfect because the time frame extends to the moment of speaking. Given the same situation,  At what point in time and in what situations would the present perfect change into the past perfect?

[Joe Carillo]

It depends on the nature of the completed action or the achieved state of affairs. For instance, if a woman committed a serious sin a month ago and she tells her father-confessor about it, she might say, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned." The present perfect is called for because although the action ("sinning") took place a month ago, the state of having sinned continues up to the present time (the moment of speaking).

In contrast, the past perfect is called for when the completed action or the achieved state of affairs no longer subsists or persists, and is being spoken about in terms of a time frame in the past. The same woman, recalling her having committed that same serious sin a month ago, might say, "Father, the problem is that I had sinned against my husband by the time he came back from Dubai."

Note that the past perfect "had sinned" is used because no definite time of occurrence is given for it, and it is being talked about in relation to another event or occurrence in the past ("by the time he came back from Dubai"). On the other hand, the simple past tense will be called for when the time of occurrence of the commission of sin is specified, as follows: "Father, I sinned against my husband last month. This was shortly before he returned from Dubai." This time, in the woman's narrative, everything is being told in the past tense.

We can see from the examples given above that there's actually no specific point of time when the present perfect changes into the past perfect. Instead, the core difference between these two tenses is that the present perfect applies to completed actions or states that continue or subsist up to the moment of speaking about them, while the past perfect applies to actions or states that were completed or that had subsisted at some indefinite time in the past, often (but not always) reckoned in relation to another action or occurrence in the past, as I explained in an earlier posting.

[curiouscat]

Hello Curiouscat, you're welcome. Glad you liked the trivia. Well, if it's cockney accent you want, all you have to do is listen to Len Goodman, the Head judge of Dancing With The Stars. Len is a typical cockney Londoner, like Michael Caine. Those two young men, Ant and Dec of Britain's Got Talent also have a typical geordie accent. However, if you have already heard of Cheryl Cole, one of the judges of the  X-Factor, the pretty girl sitting next to Simon Cowell, then you needn't go far.Sadly, Simon has told her to "change" her accent, or at least, modify it a bit, for her to be understood by a wider audience. The BBC call it RP, or Received Pronunciation when those learning English follow this system. In the past, the BBC wouldn't even accept reporters/correspondents with a regional accent since they had a rule before that everyone spoke with the same accent. But this was changed drastically since many complained. 

I just watched Forgetting Sarah Marshall and one of the cast members is Russel Brand. So I have to ask, what would you say is his brand of English? It sounds more pronounced and certain consonants like "H" is dropped, which reminds me of Sasha Baron Cohen's character ALI-G and his playful portrayal, if not a more extreme version of the similar accent.