Jose Carillo's English Forum
English Grammar and Usage Problems => Use and Misuse => Topic started by: apiong on October 24, 2009, 10:21:11 AM
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When the French from Normandy won the Battle of Hastings in England in the eleventh century they ruled over England and imposed their French language. After some time the French and the Anglo-Saxon languages got mixed up and a new language evolved into what is now known as the English language.
This is where the issue of Taglish in the Philippines comes into focus.
Because of what I feel as the culturally anomalous imposition of English, a foreign language, on Philippine life as a national language (thanks to American invasion and occupation of almost half a century) Filipinos today automatically blend English words into Tagalog resulting in what maybe viewed by foreigners as funny pidgin called Taglish.
If language purists desire Tagalog to be Tagalog and English to be English they might want to eliminate English from the fabric of Philippine life in order to preserve not just Tagalog but also to preserve our other regional native languages.
Whoever wants to study English should do so VOLUNTARILY. Hopefully studying English voluntarily might mean better motivation to learn correct English. Of course, there are foreign words that have no Philippine equivalents like golf, bacteria, etc. and this is where we have no choice but to use them. There is no excuse to use English terms when there are native equivalents.
But unless the nation stops using English for its internal affairs starting with the educational system the highly visible sectors of Philippine society such as the entertainment sector (INCLUDING crooked grandstanding politicians) will continue to mangle both Tagalog and English with such terms like mastudyhan, nagrespondi, magspek, sopdrink, gelprin, boypren, etc.
Should English be eliminated from the fabric of Philippine daily life so that those who study it voluntarily might speak and write better English as a result?
Will funny, embarrassing Taglish stay forever in the Philippines? That would depend on what the nation wants.
Apiong
Livonia, Michigan
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APIONG: In the old days, Filipinos spoke Tagalog using some Spanish words to express themselves more clearly. Some of these words like recuerdo (remembrance) and ayuda (help) could no longer be understood by the present generation. Gradually, many of these Spanish words have been absorbed into Tagalog. The same thing might happen to Taglish. Or it might go the way of Chavacano, which started as a form of pidgin Spanish bu gradually evolved into a language.
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And this goes back to my original question on "word evolution" in another thread. who determines what is acceptable in today's language?
of course we should speak according to socio-cultural, linguistic and pragmatic factors: what occasion, who the speakers are, what they are talking about, speakers' roles, etc. taglish, therefore could not be always acceptable as there are just a few specific occasions where it is appropriate. even speaking perfect formal english would be out of place in conversations dealing with intimate feelings or jokes.
but when are taglish coinings included in our dictionary? i think, it is up to those educated individuals who have the direct control of the rules set by "asosasyon linguistika ng pilipinas" and their international counterparts to set the standard. they have the control of what gets published in the media, broadcast on TV, etc. and what could be called formal, casual, or colloquial. i remember asking this same question 20 years ago in graduate sch.-ust: who determines the soundness of a given word? who approves the new list of words for our dictionary? Answer: the educated elite.
not in the same line, but there's somewhat a similar issue here in japan last here ( in one american university) when during the convocation of english educators, the lecturer raised this challenging question: what would you do if in the next 50 years, you would find the rise of a new english variety-india english, that would be widely used by majority of english speakers in the world? (not exactly same wording, but you get the idea.) the lecturer even made use of examples from india's leading newspaper on some odd english, and of all other situations, an excerpt from a philippine newspaper on the use of "furnitures". well, i think, the lecturer's speech was amiss of lots of new grammar rules and modifications or ignorance of the waves on english growth...but using philippine media as one example for "the deviations from traditional grammar rules" was annoying. we continued the arguments in the convocation to our classroom discussions, and i was finally satisfied when our professor was dumbfounded when i answered that question with: just what variety exactly are we speaking now, compared to the english spoken by marlowe and shakespeare? if they were still alive, what could they be saying now? ::)
just thoughts to ponder...
getting sane madgirl
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Allow me to share with you some observations on Indian (and Pakistani) English:
Do the needful = do what is necessary
Shoe repairing = a shop that repairs shoes
According to the Mr. Smith... = According to Mr. Smith...
Neigh = no
I would like to appreciate you = I would like to show my appreciation to you
You are not understanding = You do not understand
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MADGIRL; It's possible that Indian English could take over thre world. Remember that US English assumed control of English from the British in the last century through Hollywood films and the triumvirate of Time Magazine, Newsweek and US News & World Report. India has the world's second largest population after China, and majority of Indians, especially in the South, prefer to speak English rather than Hindi, the official language. Southern Indians see Hindi as a Northern language being imposed on them, although many can speak and understand Hindi. English has come a long way from its Germanic roots. Take the English word “submarine.” It comes from Latin (sub, meaning under and marine, meaning water). Being a a Germanic language, why didn't English use “undersea boat.” In German, a submarine is called “untersee boot,” meaning “undersea boat.”
Renzphotopgraphy:The reason whi Indian and Pakistani English beat around the bush, so to speak, is that they had their beginnings in the 19th-Century correspondences of the British East India Company. Not much have changed since then. But they are coping up through American TV series and newsmagazines like Time and Newsweek. I remember that the use of “while” was a novelty to Indians in the 1980s. Before that they wrote “Whilst.”
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Maudionisio, obviously you haven't met a lot of South Asians because if you do you will know that they are very direct and rude, contrary to the beating-around-the bush-British-influence you are suggesting.
Much of the Indianism has to do with the difficulty in translating their thoughts in the Indian language (whichever it may be) to the English language. Not very different from the way Filipinisms were developed.
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Contrary to your belief, I have worked with Indians and Pakistanis for 10 years. I have based my comments based on my experience with them and the stories that they have told me about their countries and cultures. You will be surprised to know that Hindi and Urdu are two different languages. An Hindi speaker would understand an Urdu speaker, and vice versa. Their only difference is that Hindi is writeen in Sanskrit and Urdu in Arabic. It is not true all Indians and Pakistanis are rude as you believe. Many of them who had gone to college are rude, but it is easier to get along with those in the lower classes. Sure Indianisms and Filipinisms pepper the English of Indians and Filipinos. But so do Americanisms, Canadianisms Australianisms New Zealandisms, South Africanisms can be found in the English spoken in thes countries. That's how Latin broke up into the Romance languages. If not for the internet and other modern means of communications, English would have evolved into different langiages, just like English had drifted away from its Germanic roots.It is a given that many Latin and French words have found their way into English. Many Hindi words have also been absorbed into English. Take a llok at the origins of jungle, shampoo, thug, bungalow and other words now common to English. You will discover that many Hindi and other Indian words have taken a foothold in English, centuries before you have developed that fear of “Indianisms.”
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I quote, "centuries before I have developed fear of Indianisms?" Where did that come from? "Many of them who had gone to college are rude.." you say, look who is afraid now. I have worked and lived with many of them, that is why I know what I am saying. Lower class or upper class, to me they are just the same.
Here in the country, the Indians who were born and educated in India are the most annoying. But those who were raised and educated here and in Western countries have better manners. The only exceptions are those who were born and educated in India but have lived in the country for ten years or more.
Oh, by the way, it would help a lot if you consult an Indian religious leader for insights because I do, which is why I know about the myriad of problems encountered by peoples in South Asia.
And if in case you haven't noticed, many Filipino (Tagalog) words were incorporated in English as well.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/boondocks
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carabao
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abaca
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RENZPHOTOGRAPHY: You have just revealed to the world your utter prejudice and discrimination toward Indians, and your disdain for one of the world's oldest culture. Insulting Indians born in India and patronizing Indians born and educated in the Philippines and the West exposes your “Bumbay” mentality, which is typical among many Filipinos with narrow, prejudiced minds. Naturally you would patronize Indians born in the Philippines and those who have been in the country for 10 years because they have already acquired Filipino customs and habits. The same reason you patronize Western-educated Indians. Your “Bumbay” mentality goads you to look down on Indians. Let me inform you that Indians exert more effort in learning English than we do. Keep in mind that when they learn English, Indians infuse into their brain not only a different alphabet but a completely different script. The various languages of India are written in different scripts that a speaker of a language in one state would be unable to read the script of a language in another state. Imagine the effort they would exert in learning how to write the Latin script of English. Filipinos have more ease in learning English because Philippine languages are also written in the Latin script. As for Tagalog words in English, how many are they? Two—banca and boondocks. Add baguio and juramentado, but they are no longer in common use. Look at you dictionary. Probably one half of the English vocabulary came from Hindi and other Indian languages.
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RENZPHOTOGRAPHY. Ok, I missed abaca and carabao among Tagalog words absorbed into English. Maybe there are also words from other Philippine languages. But there are few of them compared to Hindi and other Indian languages. Hindi and other Indian words were gradually taken into English through British civil servants and soldiers in India, who used these foreign words to precisely describe their experiences in that country in writing letters home.
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ok guys, let's go back to talking more on languages and lesser on personality. i have friends who are from india and their principles vary greatly according to their own preferences and personal beliefs, same is true with my other international friends. i am just wondering what characteristics these friends tag me. i hope they see me as a unique individual, not a representative of the whole country i am from...for it could be unfair to others to be attributed same "madness" i have, ;D ...one thing...i always get complements for us all filipinos ;). it's nice to hear positive remarks, so can we just keep to ourselves "other" character evaluations? though so many factors affect the growth of languages including attitudes, for now, let's focus on how we could contribute positively to the languages that help build and improve our lives.
"sake" to you guys! kampaii! cheers!
winter is here...es la hora de vino ::)
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Hi! Why do you call yourself MADGIRL?
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Well Maudionisio, since you patronize things Indian so much then why don't you go there and apply for Indian citizenship. I'm sure they would love to take you in, and treat you as an equal.
By the way, if you think Indians are not prejudicial then you must be so naive. Haven't you heard of the sectarian violence in India? In provinces like Gujarat? Of course, there is the caste system and boy how Indians in the lower castes would love their station in life.
Almost all Filipinos who have worked in the Middle East with South Asians know what Indians, Pakistanis, Bengalis, and Sri Lankans are like. Why don't you ask around.
I am only ready and willing to treat as equals those who will treat Filipinos as equals and with respect. Anything less would be utter subservience and these are the words of a proud OFW.
So take off your rose colored glasses and see things for what they are.
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RENZPHOTGRAPHY:You cannot justify bigotry. Your harsh words for Indians and Pakistanis reveal your inner self.And you have exposed this through the internet for thr whole world to judge. As I've said, you have shown your disdain for one of the world's oldest culture. The caste system is part of the culture of Hindus. It's not for us to judge whether the practices of a people are right or wrong. The Indian government had already outlawed caste system, although in some areas it is still being practiced. By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses. I see the world as it is.
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Taglish will always remain a vital communication link whether we like it or not. It pains me to say this but having joined Facebook, one can find just too many Taglish commenters that frankly, it puts me off reading their comments. As for text spelling they use on Facebook, it bothers me that that too has become common. Will someone tell these commenters to either write in English or the dialect, instead of mixing the two? Even those TV anchors and newsreaders use more Tagalog than English which wasn't the case thirty years ago. I think it had to do with the Cory Administration. She was a xenophobic that she didn't even allow foreign investments into the country. She put the country in suspended animation for six years and the quality of broadcast journalism went down to a certain degree. If Mar got married thirty years ago, the reporters and anchors would have been using only one language---and that's the English language. Oh, well, it's not my problem.
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HILL ROBERTS: I believe the use of English among Filipino students started to decline in the late 1960s when the government gave in to so-called nationalists to give more emphasis on Pilipino (actually Tagalog) in schools. Students spoke and wrote English in school and talked with friends and releatives in Tagalog and other Philippine languages. Therefore, the government should have strengthened English in schools to enable the students to become bilingual. That's why the generation that used the John and Jean series in the elementary grades were able to communicate fluently in both English and Tagalog or other Philippine language.
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What's wrong Maudionisio, afraid of the inconvenient truth are we?
"And you have exposed this through the internet for the whole world to judge", you say, well guess what, it cuts both ways because so have you!
You bring shame to the millions of Filipinos who have toiled and suffered in the deserts of the Middle East. I have told many of my OFW friends about our exchange and we all say the same thing, we wish you were there to see what we have seen and to experience what we have experienced. We would love to see you endure our ordeals for there is no better teacher than actual experience.
If you are not wearing rose colored glasses then you must be looking through a stained window.
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Well, nobody really offered an opinion on whether Taglish will stay forever in the Philippines. Are Filipinos in love with Taglish? If so then let the status quo remain. Let English, a foreign language, rule Filipino cultural life as adulterated Taglish.
If not, why not remove English from the educational system so that gradually only unavoidable English terms without native equivalents will ever surface into our native languages? After all we don't have to have English as one of our national languages to fit in this shrinking globe. The Chinese, the Japanese, the Europeans are proof of this. Their government, their newspapers, their daily lives are conducted in their own language. Those who need English study it voluntarily.
I hope I don't get bats and bricks for thinking of the latter option. :)
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Taglish will remain forever in the Philippines because no language exists "pure" to stand the test of times. Languages will absorb whatever trends and happenings occur in the cultures where they are being used. Education of the population affects the way a language is used, but there are some other elements that could adversely mar the strict compliance to the standard use of a language. Even educated English speakers in the Philippines regularly shift from Tagalog to English in many instances in their daily conversations. Broadcast and written media can just contribute in slowing down the speed of a language's demise (just like what is happening to many of our provincial and tribal dialects not attractive to researchers and media attention) or control the impacts of other languages co-existing with the language (say, Tagalog...media allowing Taglish on TV, etc), or help in the improvement of language education (corrupted English with vulgar Tagalog expressions must be avoided, teachers must suggest standards on good coinage)...lots of solutions to do..But remember, CHANGES are not always bad but often more productive. If English would have hundreds of variations as it will be spoken by the whole world soon, so let it be, as it is inevitable. It is the schools, the educated and media people's responsibility to maintain the quality of changes that may be inflicted on the languages we speak.
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RENZPHOTOGRAPHY: I have lived and worked in a Middle East country for 10 years, and ln those years I have met a lot of Filipinos with the same parochial attitude and prejudice as you. In Arabic, you and your bunch are aptly described as “mafi muk.” The ordeal that you say you and other OFWs have gone through in the Middle East are all in your mind. That's like having a psychosomatic illness. It's just the mind making you think that other nationalities are out to get you. Freud calls that state of mind paranoia and the person with that mind set paranoid. That word was the origin of the Tagalog (Filipino to the government) slang “praning.”
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APIONG: After the Norman conquest, English language became subvservient to Norman-French. Many French words were adopted into English, and the English started to inject French phrases into their speech. That's how French phrases like deja vu (Your have seen it) entered the English language. So the English began to speak English peppered with French words and phrases. These are now found in the English dictionary because they are now part of the English vocabulary. Just like the English of the Norman period, Filipinos of today speak Tagalog mixed with English words and phrases. This is known as Taglish. So your question whether Taglish will remain, the answer is “yes.” in the same way that French words and phrases have remained in English and are now part of English vocabulary. Gradually Tagalog will absorb these English words and phrases and they will become part of the language that the government has started to call “Filipino.” Taglish and Filipino will then merge and would become simply known as “Filipino.”
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MADGIRL: You're right. Changes are not always bad, and changes brought about by foreign words adopted into Tagalog could help in the evolution and improvement of the language. Tagalog has no terms for many modern technological equipment like the computer and its ubiquitous appendage, the mouse. Should we call it a “daga?” In naming a boat that travels under the sea, English, a Germanic language, turned to Latin to coin the word “submarine.” German aptly calls a submarine an “untersee boot” or undersea boat. As for English, it could evolve into various languages as Latin had broken up into the Romance languages. However, this could take time because modern means of communications like the internet keep people in touch. You're right broadcasters have contributed to the spread of Taglish and the demise of the quality of English and Tagalog in the Philippines. But a language is a living thing that must keep up with the times. Browse through an English dictionary and you will find some of the definitions marked “archaic.” That means the word has assumed a new meaning different from what it orginally meant. Look at Chavacano. It appears to have a Spanish structure, but its grammar is actually a cross between Bisaya and Spanish and the words are a hodge podge of the two languages. That's in Zamboanga City. In Ternate, Cavite, Chavacano is a mixture of Tagalog and Spanish. Chavacano started out as a form of pidgin Spanish, but it has now evolved into a full pledged language.
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So, you add salt to open wound and call millions of Filipinos who have undergone repression in the hands of South Asians in the Arabian desert as psychosomatic pranings and MOK MAFI ("brainless" in Arabic).
Well Maudionisio, you must be so MOK CARBAN ("crazy" in Arabic) to think that your charmed life in the desert is the common experience of the majority of Filipinos who have worked or are working there. Among Filipinos, your kind is what is commonly referred to as balingbing.
You must have really sucked it up with your South Asian bosses to get promoted. You must be one of those who would compromise and betray his fellow Filipinos just to look good before his bosses, a traitor no less.
Your true color is really showing. You stink more than a rotten fish.
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Please keep the discussion civil. No name calling, no inflammatory statements.
I don't want to have to resort to editing posts.
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RENZPHOTOGRAPHY: You cannot defend your position through insults. If you were a lawyer arguing in court, the judge would yell at you and declare you in contempt for being out of order. Argue on the merits.
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Look who is talking.
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Ladies! Ladies! :o
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Rescue operation... calling? Aye, aye Sir!
Hey Max, have you ever spoken any Taglish before? I know, you've been speaking ti too :D. Give us a sample...
madgirl...at another "sake" time. :P
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I quote, "centuries before I have developed fear of Indianisms?" Where did that come from? "Many of them who had gone to college are rude.." you say, look who is afraid now. I have worked and lived with many of them, that is why I know what I am saying. Lower class or upper class, to me they are just the same.
I agree with Renzphotography compeletely, here in China most of the Indian students and teachers are very rude. They think as if they are the Kings of the world. They act as if they are omniscient. :o
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Stone the crows and starve the bandicoots! Youse sheilas having a blue is enough to put the wind up a man. Fair dinkum!
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Stone the crows and starve the bandicoots! Youse sheilas having a blue is enough to put the wind up a man. Fair dinkum!
What did you say Max Sims? Are you from Mars? :o ::)
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I said, "My! You women arguing is sufficient to frighten me. Really!"
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RENZPHOTOGRAPHY AND CRUISE: I rest my case. Let the world judge.
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This is for everyone.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables_2.html
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14969084
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My goodness, I've just been reading all the banter taking place in this forum. I had no idea Joe allowed it. Still, reading the heated discussion has made the forum much more interesting although I'm still startled how the light banter ended into a heated discussion, including name-calling. Hmmm. What is there for me to say now that you guys have covered every aspect of this particular topic? All of you guys have a point. I must admit that I did have a few cross words with some South Asians over there and in Gibraltar. One Indian shopowner was overpoweringly rude when I bought a few postcards from him. Why he was rude God only knows. I think it's because in the UK, they are one of the most disliked people because there are just too many of them. Another reason would be their cultural decision to stay together, breed like rabbits and not learn to integrate. I have no quarrel with other immigrants in Europe. In fact, I get along nicely with the Moroccans, South Americans, the Chinese. I must confess that I feel more comfortable being with the Brits and Scandinavians, as well as the Germans and the Dutch.
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Stone the crows and starve the bandicoots! Youse sheilas having a blue is enough to put the wind up a man. Fair dinkum!
What did you say Max Sims? Are you from Mars? :o ::)
Sorry for the momentary over-the-top mayhem in the Forum! I was away on the day it happened and couldn't directly intervene. It's a good thing that my webmaster had made that warning about the need to keep discussions civil here, and that those concerned listened and agreed to a ceasefire.
Anyway, although I thought I understood what Max Sims said in a general sense, I looked up the direct meaning of the more intriguing words in his otherworldly English rant simply for my own enlightenment. All definitions below are from my digital Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
bandicoot
Function: noun
Etymology: Telugu pandikokku*
Date: 1813
1: any of several very large rats (genera Bandicota and Nesokia) of southern Asia destructive to crops
2: any of various small chiefly insectivorous and herbivorous marsupial mammals (family Peramelidae or family Peroryctidae) of Australia, Tasmania, and New Guinea
sheila
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Sheila, female given name
Date: circa 1914
Australian & New Zealand : a girl or young woman
1dinkum
Function: adjective
Etymology: English dialect dinkum, noun, work, share of work
Date: 1905
Australian & New Zealand : AUTHENTIC, GENUINE — often used with fair <I was fair dinkum about my interest in their culture — Percy Trezise>
2dinkum
Function: adverb
Date: 1915
Australian & New Zealand : TRULY, HONESTLY — often used with fair; often used interjectionally
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*Something funnily odd here: The Telugu pandikokku sounds like the Spanish term pan de coco and its Tagalog corruption, pandikoko, which means bread with sweet, grated coconut stuffing—one of my favorites when I was a teenager. Could there be a common root for all three terms sometime in the distant past? Is it possible that the connection is that the Telugu pandikokku is edible and that the natives--by some quirk of history--had somehow used the Spanish term pan de coco for that rodent? Talk about perfect coincidences in phonemes among languages that are oceans and thousands of miles apart!
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Buenos dias, Joe,
Don't get me wrong. I quite enjoyed the heated discussion! ;D There were some very witty replies and comments. Cheers! :-*
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Maudionisio:
I agree that foreign words are needed into Tagalog when there are no Tagalog equivalents. That is fine for Tagalog - this may even lead to the desired evolution of a national language based on Tagalog. Examples of foreign words we need are bacteria, golf, algebra, etc...
But mastudyhan, naginkres, naginkwire, are examples of inexcusable substitutions of mapagaralan, dumami, nagtanong...
And what about the future of English in the Philippines? I feel - and this, of course, is subject to open discussion - that English should be VOLUNTARY so that anyone who desires it will have a high motivation to study proper English.
The status quo is a shameful scenario of characters with high visibility talking Taglish and very poor English. This is because they were FORCED to study English "pram gred wan to koleds." This may be the reason why Filipinos generally speak and write poorly in English since their minds constantly grope for words that come to mind from both Tagalog and English.
"Naginkres ang inkwayries tungkol sa ertkwik sa Chile..." That expression is funny. If the speaker was not poorly exposed to forced English he would have easily said "dumami and tanong tungkol sa lindol sa Chile..."
The point? To improve the use of a native language we must eliminate the FORCED use of English.
Also, voluntary study of English may lead to a better expression of that language because of higher voluntary motivation.