Author Topic: Aaaargh!  (Read 33468 times)

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 09:59:16 AM »
Call me pedantic, but I think that "primarily" attaches itself strongly to "written", instead of to "for people who...etc".

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2009, 09:48:26 AM »
While Joe is composing an answer to the above post, he may like to take a 1002nd look at the front cover of "Give Your English the Winning Edge".

Over the title is the kicker "This time, excellent English is now within your reach".

We are entitled to ask: "What happened last time?"

Logically, "this time" should be "now", but there already is a "now" in the sentence.

My guess is that this kicker was written by an advertising copywriter.

Joe Carillo

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On grammar prescriptivism and advertising language
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2009, 03:38:02 PM »
Call me pedantic, but I think that "primarily" attaches itself strongly to "written", instead of to "for people who...etc".

To put things in proper perspective, the passage concerned is the second paragraph of the preface of my book, Give Your English the Winning Edge:

“It was primarily written for people who are finding to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by higher academic studies, by the job market, and by the various professions.”

In your little exercise of pedantry, maxsims, you say that “‘primarily’ attaches itself strongly to ‘written’, instead of to ‘for people who...etc.’” In that case, I presume that you would rather that “primarily” be positioned after “written,” as follows:

It was written primarily for people who are finding to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by higher academic studies, by the job market, and by the various professions.”

Here, the adverb “primarily” now specifically modifies the verb “written” alone. It’s a perfectly valid construction, but it so happens that it wasn’t my intention for “primarily” to modify only “written.” My intention was for “primarily” to modify the whole statement that follows it, in the same sense as the following construction of that sentence:

Primarily, it was written for people who are finding to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by higher academic studies, by the job market, and by the various professions.”

I would have done it that way, making the adverb “primarily” lead off the whole sentence, but I was unhappy about that construction from a stylistic and articulation standpoint. This was because the preceding sentence also started with a modifying phrase, “As with the first book,” which serves as a transitional device linking the first paragraph of the preface to the second. For that purpose, of course, that modifying phrase absolutely must be positioned right at the beginning of that sentence and nowhere else.

Now, my writing and editing experience tells me that in an exposition, it’s unwise to start off two or more consecutive sentences with prepositional phrases, whether infinitive, prepositional, participial, or adverbial. This is because they tend to give expositions or narratives a choppy sound and a disjointed feel. To see what I mean, take a look at the following reconstruction of the second paragraph of my preface:

As with the first book, this volume is meant to help nonnative English speakers demonstrably improve their written English without having to go back to the classroom. Primarily, it was written for people who are finding to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by higher academic studies, by the job market, and by the various professions. Thus, after a quick survey of the problems most often encountered in the use of English, the book goes straight to the heart of the matter: how to construct clearer, livelier, and more readable sentences and how to keep the grammar, usage, and style of one’s writing aboveboard at all times.”

We now have all three consecutive sentences starting off with a prepositional phrase (“as with the first book”), an adverb (“primarily”), and another adverb (“thus”). To break that undesirable stylistic and structural pattern, I saw fit to reconstruct the second sentence by taking out the adverb “primarily” from up front and making it integral to the sentence. I positioned it right after the expletive “it was” to indicate the same sense that that sentence would have if the adverb were positioned as an adverbial modifier up front. Please reread that sentence now to get that sense; it may take some doing if you have strongly conditioned yourself to think that the sense should be otherwise, but that intended sense should eventually dawn on you if you open up your mind wide enough.

I realize that this has been a lengthy, highly involved explanation, but I hope that my own exercise of pedantry has satisfied your own exercise of it. Of course, I also hope that it has been instructive as well to Forum members about how the mind of pedants and advertising copywriters work.

While Joe is composing an answer to the above post, he may like to take a 1002nd look at the front cover of "Give Your English the Winning Edge".

Over the title is the kicker "This time, excellent English is now within your reach".

We are entitled to ask: "What happened last time?"

Logically, "this time" should be "now", but there already is a "now" in the sentence.

My guess is that this kicker was written by an advertising copywriter.

Regarding this kicker, “This time, excellent English is now within your reach,” you asked: “What happened last time?” You also suggested that logically, “this time” should be “now,” but there already is a “now” in the sentence, implying that “now” is redundant. And lastly, you guessed that the kicker was written by an advertising copywriter.

Well, maxsims, you probably already know that I came out with an earlier book, English Plain and Simple, before I came out with Give Your English the Winning Edge. Now that you ask me what happened that time when I came out with that first book, I will try to satisfy your curiosity by now taking the liberty of coining this belated, retroactive kicker for you: “Last time, good English came to be within your reach.” Focus very well on the word “good” so you won’t lose your way. Now, I ask you to segue to the present and to my other book, which now makes this claim apropos to that first claim: “This time, excellent English is now within your reach.” This is really how the advertising copywriter’s mind worked in me to come up with that kicker.

As for the grammar of that kicker, the adverbial phrase “this time” is meant to be “today”—the present time—modifying the entire statement “excellent English is now within your reach.” But why did I use “now” if I already used “this time” in the same sentence? It was to convey the idea of the continuing availability of excellent English (the book’s advertising promise) as well as to achieve creative repetition or stickiness. In that sense, maxsims, that kicker was indeed written by an advertising copywriter harnessing grammar for a specific marketing objective—the prescriptivist urge of grammar pedants notwithstanding!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:16:55 PM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 12:06:31 PM »
Regarding the kicker, I understand your logic, and it works well for people who are aware of the previous book and can recall its kicker.   However, it is presumptious to put everyone into that category.  I maintain the "rule" that such a statement, whether it segues from a previous statement or not, should make sense to the "cold" reader.

By the way, pviii of my copy of GYETWE has an orphan "levels".   This error, which is a setting error and not a printing error, exists in all copies on display at the local National bookstore.   Similarly, the otherwise-blank p18 has a superflluous title.    And I am mystified by the line "p.    cm." on pvi.   These are errors that should have been detected by a competent spell/grammar checker AND by a competent proofreader.

I haven't read past p18 due to an enforced examination of the interior of the local hospital.   If this hospital is typical, I can attest that Philippine hospitals must have the world's hardest mattresses and the world's prettiest nurses!

Back to "primarily".   I believe the word would function better if positioned thus:

"It was written for, primarily, people who are finding...etc".


Joe Carillo

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In defense of certain English usage in my third book
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 08:31:27 AM »
The third paragraph of your posting is somewhat cryptic—due to a doubtful preposition usage, I really couldn’t figure out if you are referring to the hospital’s interiors or to yours—but I do hope that everything’s well with you, maxsims, and I mean it not in jest!

Anyway, I couldn’t reply to your grammar concerns earlier because I have been away from my workplace and my computer for a full 36 hours—the longest time that I hadn’t been able to attend to the Forum since it started in May this year. My wife, my two sons, and I are just back from a December reunion with my two sisters and brother and their respective families. With the interminable traffic from the Manila Centennial Airport to our hotel, the many side trips to see this or that place and to buy this or that piece of indigenous wardrobe, and the long, interminable talks about things past and present during practically every minute that we were together, the reunion just went on and on and on until jet lag finally overcame our balikbayan sister—she’s a medical doctor on vacation from the United States—and the rest of us seniors had to leave the hotel to get back to work and the younger generation to get back to school.

About the kicker for Give Your English the Winning Edge, I agree with you that as a general rule, such kickers “should make sense to the ‘cold’ reader” whether it segues from a previous statement or not. In marketing, however, we reckon with prospective book buyers in terms of whether they belong to the primary target audience or to the secondary or tertiary ones. I must point out that my first book, English Plain and Simple, was a bestseller in Philippine bookstores; so, from a marketing standpoint, we decided to primarily address those previous buyers rather than use a shotgun message for “cold” buyers in general. In effect, then, we assumed in formulating the book kicker that those previous readers already had “good English” by reading the first book, and that they would be interested in buying the new book by the same author to raise the level of their English to “excellent.” Indeed, the simple marketing logic here is that if we can just get those previous buyers to buy the new book, we can make the new book another bestseller. The new buyers from the “cold” segment will then just be gravy.

That, of course, is marketing logic as opposed to academic rules for English usage. It may ruffle the sensibilities of strict grammarians, but it’s the kind of language that sells most of the books that you find in bookstores. And remember: the front cover of a book is prime advertising space. You don’t clutter it with grammatically perfect but longwinded messages to please everyone. Just wow your primary target audience with a punchy message and you’ve got your marketing job done—and quickly and effectively at that.

Yes, as you point out, the first edition of Give Your English the Winning Edge is far from perfect. Since Gutenberg perfected the movable printing press, I guess this has been the destiny of most first editions—Neumann’s error function makes sure that nothing gets to be perfect in this universe. Indeed, the famous mathematician had actually postulated the existence of goblins whose job is to enforce the rule that “Nature abhors perfection” no matter if you deploy a thousand and one proofreaders. But please be assured that we are putting up a good fight to get those grammar goblins exorcised 99.99% for the second edition. Against all odds, we publishing mortals just have to keep on fighting for printing perfection!

As to your final point, maxsims, you suggest that “primarily” would function better if positioned as follows: “It was written for, primarily, people who are finding...etc.” Grammatically perhaps, but as you know, I’m not as hung up with comma usage as Lynne Truss of Eats, Shoots & Leaves fame (or notoriety, depending on your grammar persuasion), with her “zero tolerance approach to punctuation.” I do believe that that sentence would look and read much better without those two commas setting off “primarily” from the rest of the sentence: “It was primarily written for people who are finding to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by higher academic studies, by the job market, and by the various professions.” So there.

Merry Christmas! 

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 07:31:52 PM »
"...an enforced examination of the interior of the local hospital..."

Hmmm....perfectly straightforward reference to the interior of the hospital, I would have thought.

“Nature abhors perfection”

Hmmm...when I was doing physics, it was "Nature abhors a vacuum".    Mind you, there were many Neumanns in physics/maths, so perhaps it was another....perhaps the one who said, "Nature abhors a printer who is too cheap to employ a galley proofreader".... :)

I am now well, thank you.

Joe Carillo

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 10:09:42 PM »
You're welcome, maxsims! I'm happy to know that you're well now.

I beg your pardon, but I'm still perplexed by this statement of yours: "...an enforced examination of the interior of the local hospital..."

If you meant that you were bedridden for sometime, the euphemistic statement I would have expected is this: "I had nothing to do but stare at the ceiling and the hospital walls."

This is why I had actually entertained the thought that you were in the country as a buying agent for a hospital chain in Australia, checking if that particular hospital you were referring to met the grade in terms of interior finishings and the pulchritude of its nursing staff. ::)

As to the Neumann I was referring to, it was John von Neumann, the Austro-Hungarian-born American mathematician who is regarded as one of the foremost mathematicians of the 20th century,making major contributions to set theory, functional analysis, quantum mechanics, ergodic theory, continuous geometry, economics and game theory, and computer science. A truly fascinating character, this Neumann! 8)

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2009, 07:57:58 AM »
"...I beg your pardon, but I'm still perplexed by this statement of yours: "...an enforced examination of the interior of the local hospital..."

If you meant that you were bedridden for sometime, the euphemistic statement I would have expected is this: "I had nothing to do but stare at the ceiling and the hospital walls."

This is why I had actually entertained the thought that you were in the country as a buying agent for a hospital chain in Australia, checking if that particular hospital you were referring to met the grade in terms of interior finishings and the pulchritude of its nursing staff..."


This illustrates how different races interpret English differently.    An Australian, upon reading my text, would have known immediately that I had been taken ill, taken to the hospital and later discharged!

Joe Carillo

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2009, 08:57:08 AM »
How right you are, maxsims! So perhaps we should try harder to communicate in internationally recognizable English. :D At any rate, I hope you're now in the pink of health once again. Take care!

hill roberts

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2009, 08:17:59 PM »
Yes, Maxsims is right in the sense that in Britain, as in Australia, the people there would rather use the word "ill" rather than "sick" as in " I was taken ill with a bad stomach..." or "She became ill when she ate the uncooked oysters." People here only use the word sick when they refer to "vomit" or when a person says things that make the Brits "sick" with listening to their hooliganism ways. "Yes, she had been very ill until she died." I  myself had to make some adjustments with these nuances and word-play since the Brits and the Americans are not exactly similar in many aspects. In Europe, too, the Europeans follow the British spelling,and not the American's. So, thirty years ago, I had to change and now it is a habit that's rather difficult to break unless I think twice to change the spelling of "humour" to humor , etc. I had to standardise my spelling (ways) in that regard. Also, even the "...ise" and "...ize".... :) ::)

Joe Carillo

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2009, 09:53:18 AM »
More than just from differences in English vocabulary and styling, Hill, I think the problem stems from differences in language register. In his original hospital-bed posting, maxsims was actually speaking deliberately in the kind of elliptical English meant to be understood only by kindred spirits. He was using an English that was meant to reveal some things and hide other details in roughly equal measure. This kind of language--this idiom or shibboleth, we might say--is actually exclusionary and cabalistic, and is neither British nor Australian English nor American English but some sort of euphemism or outright affectation. It's fun to do among fellow members of one's cabal, but in a public venue like this Forum, I make every effort not to speak that way to avoid sowing semantic confusion. Anyway, I think maxsims can be forgiven for doing so in that particular instance, for from my own experience, being bedridden in a hospital is actually not very hospitable to coming up with straight thoughts and straight talk. :D

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2009, 01:08:47 PM »
"...maxsims was actually speaking deliberately in the kind of elliptical English meant to be understood only by kindred spirits..."

I was....?

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2009, 01:18:09 PM »
"...Yes, Maxsims is right in the sense that in Britain, as in Australia, the people there would rather use the word "ill" rather than "sick"..."

Hill, I have never said, or implied, that Australians use "ill" rather than "sick".   Please do not attribute that statement to me.    For the record, I'd guess (and only guess) that "sick" is preponderant.

hill roberts

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2009, 03:39:45 PM »
Oops, sorry, Joe. My apologies. :) :-*

maxsims

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Re: Aaaargh!
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2009, 06:03:23 PM »
You may call me Max!     :D