Jose Carillo's English Forum

English Grammar and Usage Problems => Use and Misuse => Topic started by: Musushi-tamago on August 26, 2009, 11:00:09 PM

Title: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Musushi-tamago on August 26, 2009, 11:00:09 PM
Are there specific rules on subject-verb agreement?

If so, what is the general rule in it?

What are the rules when there are compound subjects connected by an "and" or an "or"?

They're just really quick questions; I'd appreciate any quick help to it.  :)
Title: Some basic subject-verb agreement applications
Post by: Joe Carillo on August 27, 2009, 09:44:35 AM
Are there specific rules on subject-verb agreement?

If so, what is the general rule in it?

What are the rules when there are compound subjects connected by an "and" or an "or"?

They're just really quick questions; I'd appreciate any quick help to it.  :)

The basic grammar rule in English is, of course, the subject-verb agreement rule. It prescribes that the operative verb of a sentence should always agree with its subject in number. This means that a subject that’s singular in number should take a verb in the singular form, and that a subject that’s plural in number should take a verb in the plural form.

Here, just by way of review, are examples of the basic application of this rule:

Singular subject (“singer”), verb in singular form (“sings”): “The singer sings so beautifully.”

Plural subject (“singers”), verb in plural form (“sing”): “The singers sing so beautifully.”

A notable exception to this rule, however, is the pronoun “you.” It takes a plural verb whether it is in its singular form or in its plural form: “You [singular sense, meaning just one singer] sing so beautifully.” “You [plural sense, meaning two or more singers] sing so beautifully.”

As a general rule, a compound subject of a sentence—meaning that the subject consists of two nouns linked by the conjunction “and”—requires a plural subject, as in “When properly motivated, the singer and the orchestra perform beautifully.” There are exceptions to this rule, though. The notional sense of unity between two subjects can sometimes prevail over grammatical agreement, such that the compound subject—although plural in form—takes a singular verb: “Her name and e-mail address is [not are] listed in my directory.” “My better half and only love has been [not have been] faithful to me all these years.” “The long and the short of it is [not are] that we parted ways.”

We must be aware, too, that the subject-verb agreement rule fails when sentences have two subjects, one singular and the other plural, such that the verb can’t agree in number with both of them. Consider this sentence: “Either Teresa or her sisters is/are not being truthful about what happened.” Which of the subjects should determine the number of the verb—the singular “Teresa” or the plural “sisters”?

To resolve the dilemma, English uses the so-called “agreement by proximity” rule. This rule says that in the case of compound subjects in “either…or” constructions, the verb should agree in number with the subject closer to it. Thus, by virtue of the proximity of their subjects to the verb, these sentences are both grammatically correct: “Either Teresa or her sisters are not being truthful about what happened.”  “Either her sisters or Teresa (herself) is not being truthful about what happened.” 

And here’s another complication to the subject-verb agreement rule that we must beware of. When a singular subject is followed by the conjoining prepositional phrases “as well as,” “in addition to,” and “along with,” the accepted usage is that the verb in such constructions should be singular: “Gerry as well as Tony works [not work] in my office.” “The necklace in addition to her bracelet is [not are] missing.” “The summer cottage along with the adjoining farm is [not are] for sale.”
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on August 27, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
“Her name and e-mail address is [not are] listed in my directory.”

I don't see any sense of unity here; despite their affinity in written communication, names and  addresses are entirely separate.  I plump for "are"..!

And what about when a statement is made in the negative?  For example, compare:

"He wants his dinner now."
"He doesn't want his dinner now."

Singular subject, but "plural" form of verb.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on August 27, 2009, 05:32:16 PM
It might help those who don't see a sense of unity in the sentence “Her name and e-mail address is listed in my directory” to think of its compound subject as a single unified item listed in a directory. Consider a directory list like the following:

(1) Elena Petrova, epetrova@yahoo.com
(2) Maximo Soames, msoames@hotmail.com
(3) Gloria Hemingway, glohem@zpdee.net
(4) Alfredo Gomez, algomez@pldtdsl.net

When a statement is in the negative form, of course, it's the helping verb that takes the number and tense--not the main verb. So, in the example "He doesn't want his dinner now," it is the helping verb "do" that takes the number and tense--"does"--and the main verb takes its bare infinitive form--"want."

Now here's that same sentence when the subject is in the plural form: "They do not want their dinner now." When the verb is in the negative contracted form, of course, this reads as "They don't want their dinner now."
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on August 27, 2009, 06:30:28 PM
Joe,

How does the phrase "He does want his dinner now" square with your explanation?
Title: You are using the emphatic form in that sentence
Post by: Joe Carillo on August 27, 2009, 10:07:15 PM
Joe,

How does the phrase "He does want his dinner now" square with your explanation?

The sentence “He does want his dinner now” is grammatically different from the examples I gave earlier in that it uses the auxiliary verb “want” in its emphatic form. In English, as you know, the emphatic form uses the verb “do” in tandem with the main verb to express emphasis in the present tense and past tense, as in “She does think it’s time for you to go” and “She did think it was time for you to go.”

Usually, the emphatic form is used by a speaker to contradict a statement made by another speaker. For instance, when the first speaker says, “George doesn’t want his dinner now,” the other speaker can use the emphatic form to contradict that statement by saying, “That’s not right; George does want his dinner now.”
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on August 27, 2009, 11:16:40 PM
How about "Does he want his dinner now"?

(Note how I cunningly placed the question mark outside the quotation marks to make it function for both the question inside the quotes and my question!)
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on August 28, 2009, 01:44:42 PM
Of course, in questions or interrogative sentences like "Does he want his dinner now?", the form requires a singular subject to be preceded by the helping verb "does" and a plural subject by the helping verb "do," after which the main verb follows immediately. The formula is:

Do/Does + subject + main verb + predicate complement

Examples:
Singular subject: "Does the boy want his dinner now?"
Plural subject:    "Do the boys want their dinner now?"
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on January 10, 2010, 05:36:44 PM
Here's a good one, Joe Carillo.

My Filipina friend was telling me about her new accommodations when she remarked, .."but the rats running over the ceiling keeps me awake."

At first, I thought, "Hold on.  That should be "keep".

But then I realised she had actually said, "but the rats' running over the ceiling...etc.", a perfectly acceptable use of the gerund.

All that coaching is paying off!

 :D
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on January 10, 2010, 10:01:32 PM
Maybe so, but I have a feeling it's just a happy, lucky happenstance that illustrates the sometimes hairline difference between spoken and written English. I'll bet you an Australian dollar that your Filipina friend actually violated the subject-verb agreement rule but got away with it by the skin of a single close quote!  :D 
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on January 11, 2010, 04:42:30 AM
I prefer my explanation...!     :D
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on January 20, 2010, 05:40:03 PM
Here's another good one, Joe Carillo.   It should sound familiar to you.

"He discovered that those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney."

The armchair critics have leapt to their feet with the cry, "all those gallons of petrol" is plural, and so the verb should be "were".
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on January 20, 2010, 06:43:49 PM
Yes, maxsims, very familiar indeed! So many people—even well-respected academics—fall for the plural form of the verb in that construction, and more’s the pity. Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.” The usage is admittedly confusing and slippery when it comes to a mass noun like “petrol,” but the fact that the subject in such noun phrases is actually singular gets much clearer in the case of other mass or collective nouns like “cloth,” “rice,” “teaching,” and “rain”:

“The tailor found out that the five meters of cloth was not enough.”
“Five kilos of rice is the weekly consumption of that family of four.”
“Over 20 years of teaching has made her feel a truly accomplished person.”
“Two days of rain was enough to flood the low-lying town near the river.”
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on January 24, 2010, 11:53:54 PM
After my column on “The correct verb form for noun phrases” came out in The Manila Times last Saturday (January 23), the paper’s editor in chief, Rene Bas, sent me the following note:

“Here is another explanation of the use of the singular in the sentences you and Max Sims cited.

“A noun-phrase subject naming a unit of measurement, currency, length of time, etc., calls for a singular verb because no matter the quantity, amount, length of time, number of units, etc., the sense is that of a totality, a whole. Therefore: “five meters of rope was needed,” “ten pesos is the selling price,” “40 minutes is too long for a speech,” “30 pieces of silver was Judas’ bribe.”

I must admit that I hadn’t thought of this very succinct explanation for why the singular verb should be used in such noun phrases. It’s much clearer and simpler than my own, don’t you think?

My thanks to Rene Bas for this grammar insight!
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on January 25, 2010, 06:00:51 AM
Excellent explanation.    I believe we can safely assume that Rene did not come through TMTC...!
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on January 27, 2010, 08:15:34 PM
I always consider "data" to be a mass noun, too!
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on February 28, 2010, 08:44:18 AM
Here's an example, taken from a British hospital website, which demonstrates the "rule" that if the subject noun is essentially plural, so should be the verb.

A significant number of patients does not need to take any pain-killers whatsoever after leaving the centre. There are no stitches to be removed and no special medical or nursing after-care is needed.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 06, 2010, 10:59:48 AM
It is always confusing when the subject involved is a mass noun with a quantifier involved because we can't simply choose easily what is the right verb form to use ( singular or plural). The rule, however, states that when the mass noun has its own quantifier, the subject can take either singular or plural verb, depending on the number of the subject as indicated by the quantifier.

Ex. Five bottles of water are enough to quench our thirst.
     One bottle of water is...
     Those many gallons of petrol are not sufficient to fuel my car.
     One gallon of petrol is...
In the example above, the real subject is "five bottles." "Of water" is just an adjectival modifier. Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier. In addition, in the second example, there is this modifier "those" which emphasizes individuality. The more that the verb form should be plural...
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 06, 2010, 08:52:03 PM
Good point, glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 08, 2010, 06:08:50 PM
Carillo:
Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Glensky:
Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier.

Carillo:
Good point, Glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.

Bemused readers:
?????
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 09, 2010, 09:53:54 AM
I'm very much aware that this subject-verb agreement issue remains highly contentious, but I have come to the conclusion that whether the verb in such cases should be singular or plural actually depends on the speaker's point of view. This is why I can't find fault whatsoever with Glensky's position on the matter. Words fail me, though, when I try to explain the hairline distinctions in this admittedly confusing state of affairs. I'm therefore having some visual aids prepared to clarify the grammar for instances like this. I'll be posting them here very shortly, probably by tonight, Philippine time. Watch for it.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 09, 2010, 06:46:08 PM
Carillo:
Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Glensky:
Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier.

Carillo:
Good point, Glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.

Bemused readers:
?????

In his posting, Forum member maxsims, citing bemused readers that presumably include himself, raised doubts about the following grammar rule cited by glensky:

“When the mass noun has its own quantifier, the subject can take either singular or plural verb, depending on the number of the subject as indicated by the quantifier.”

I said in an earlier posting that I absolutely agree with glensky’s explanation for this rule. Also, as I said in my later posting today, I have come to the conclusion that whether the verb in such cases should be singular or plural actually depends on the speaker’s point of view. This conclusion is entirely consistent with glensky’s examples and his explanations for the rule he cited.

Let’s examine glensky’s first sample sentence:

“Five bottles of water are enough to quench our thirst.”

If the water comes in five separate, distinct bottles, as shown in the illustration below, then it would make sense and it would be notionally correct to consider the subject of the sentence above as “five bottles,” which, of course, is plural. The plural form of the operative verb, “are,” would then be called for.

(http://josecarilloforum.com/imgs/5Bottles.png)

Of course, also as clarified in the illustration, the use of the singular verb “is” isn't debatable when only one bottle is involved:

“One bottle of water is enough to quench our thirst.”

This is because “one bottle” and “water” are both grammatically and notionally singular. 

But the grammar situation is different in the case of glensky’s other sentence:

Those many gallons of petrol are not sufficient to fuel my car.”

We can presume here that the speaker is looking at a large container containing petrol, but he estimates that the petrol it contains won’t be enough for his car. In his mind, as made clear by his use of the plural article “those,” he looks at petrol in terms of the countable gallons inside that container. From both the grammatical and notional standpoint, therefore, he has no choice but to use the plural-form verb “are” in that sentence. This can be better appreciated by examining the illustration below.


(http://josecarilloforum.com/imgs/2Bottles.png)
On the other hand, also as shown in the second illustration, the use of the singular verb “is” isn't debatable when only one countable gallon of petrol is involved, as “one gallon” and “petrol” are both grammatically and notionally singular:

“One gallon of petrol is not sufficient to fuel my car.”

I hope that this explanation and the graphics I have provided have clarified this contentious grammar issue once and for all.

Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 09, 2010, 07:14:22 PM
Nope.    Your explanation flies in the face of your earlier contention that "many years of study" is singular.

You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 09, 2010, 08:17:28 PM
Then that’s just too bad! You’re forgetting that we are dealing with two entirely different classes of nouns here—countable physical matter (bottles of water, gallons of petrol) and countable but abstract concepts (years, study, length of experience). The difference, of course, is that you can put physical matter into countable containers, but you can only mark time through the use of clocks and calendars and can never contain or encase it. This is why I thought you were fully convinced that “many years of study”—an obviously abstract notion—could only be singular and definitely not plural. Now you say that I can’t have it both ways. To that, my answer is: Why not? Ah, well… Although I know you’re a native English speaker, maxsims, I find it surprising that the grammatical distinctions between these two classes of nouns are lost to you. May I suggest that you do a deeper review of English grammar for a better appreciation of these distinctions? Then we can talk again and see if we can finally reconcile our different perceptions about this issue.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 10, 2010, 08:58:49 AM
So many people—even well-respected academics—fall for the plural form of the verb in that construction, and more’s the pity. Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Did you or did you not write the above explanation?

Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 10, 2010, 01:48:39 PM
Yes, of course, I did write that explanation for that particular noun phrase, “many years of study,” which is an abstract concept that I contended could only be singular. This, I remember distinctly, you finally accepted after a long, protracted discussion. In essence, you accepted my justification for using the singular-form verb phrase in this sentence: “Many people discover to their dismay that their many years of formal study of English has not given them the proficiency level demanded by the job market, by the various professions, or by higher academic studies.” I based that justification on this well-established grammar rule: time periods for a particular activity that’s notionally singular is grammatically singular, as in these example: “Fifty hours of sleeping is excessive.” Even if we knock off the gerund “sleeping” in that sentence, the time period stays notionally and grammatically singular: “Fifty hours is excessive.” We don’t say “Fifty hours are excessive,” do we? I think we can safely conclude here that time, no matter the measure, is always singular grammatically and notionally.

Now, as to this sentence specimen that I now remember you yourself had posted in the Forum sometime last January:

“He discovered that those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney.”

Here’s exactly what I said about that construction:

Quote
So many people—even well-respected academics—fall for the plural form of the verb in that construction, and more’s the pity. Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.” The usage is admittedly confusing and slippery when it comes to a mass noun like “petrol,” but the fact that the subject in such noun phrases is actually singular gets much clearer in the case of other mass or collective nouns like “cloth,” “rice,” “teaching,” and “rain”:

“The tailor found out that the five meters of cloth was not enough.”
Five kilos of rice is the weekly consumption of that family of four.”
Over 20 years of teaching has made her feel a truly accomplished person.”
Two days of rain was enough to flood the low-lying town near the river.”

Note my very specific caveat in that explanation: “The usage is admittedly confusing and slippery when it comes to a mass noun like ‘petrol’, but the fact that the subject in such noun phrases is actually singular gets much clearer in the case of other mass or collective nouns like ‘cloth’, ‘rice’, ‘teaching’, and ‘rain’.”

In his recent posting that revived this contentious issue, glensky cited this very sensible grammar rule that could help eliminate the confusion over whether to treat the noun phrase “many gallons of petrol” as singular or plural:

“When the mass noun has its own quantifier, the subject can take either singular or plural verb, depending on the number of the subject as indicated by the quantifier.”

That was precisely when it dawned on me that at least in the particular case of “petrol” and similar finite nouns with a physical and measurable existence, the verb in such cases can indeed be singular or plural depending on the speaker’s point of view. This is what I  explained in my previous posting that graphically showed five gallons of  petrol in two containment situations: (a) in distinct, separate 1-gallon bottles, and (b) combined in a single 5-gallon container.

In the first situation, the quantifier of the subject “petrol” is the physically countable five units of gallon bottles, so from the point of view of the speaker (say, a gas station attendant dispensing petrol), the verb can very well be in the plural form as well: “Five gallons of petrol are not enough to get you to Sydney.” In the second situation, however, the entire contents of the five units of 1-gallon petrol bottles are contained in a single 5-gallon bottle. This time what we have is a single bottle containing five gallons of petrol, and from the point of view of someone (perhaps a motorist getting petrol from a gas station) who has chosen to view that petrol as a single entity, it's just one unit regardless of the fact that it contains five gallons of petrol. It will therefore be grammatically and notionally correct for the motorist to use the singular verb “is” in sizing up the adequacy of the petrol for his need: “Five gallons of petrol is not enough to get me to Sydney.”     

This is as far as I would go in my effort to make you see the two sides of the “petrol” conundrum that you yourself originally posed in this Forum. The next time, I would greatly appreciate it if you could clearly present your arguments for or against this explanation rather than just dismissing it offhand with such unproductive remarks as “You can’t have it both ways” and “Did you or did you not write the above explanation?” This is a learning forum for English usage and not a place to nurse old hurts. We have much to learn from each other if we can clearly keep this in mind.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 10, 2010, 05:42:22 PM
After my column on “The correct verb form for noun phrases” came out in The Manila Times last Joe, you posted the following some time ago:

Saturday (January 23), the paper’s editor in chief, Rene Bas, sent me the following note:

“Here is another explanation of the use of the singular in the sentences you and Max Sims cited.

“A noun-phrase subject naming a unit of measurement, currency, length of time, etc., calls for a singular verb because no matter the quantity, amount, length of time, number of units, etc., the sense is that of a totality, a whole. Therefore: “five meters of rope was needed,” “ten pesos is the selling price,” “40 minutes is too long for a speech,” “30 pieces of silver was Judas’ bribe.”

I must admit that I hadn’t thought of this very succinct explanation for why the singular verb should be used in such noun phrases. It’s much clearer and simpler than my own, don’t you think?

My thanks to Rene Bas for this grammar insight!

Are you going to tell Mr Bas that you now reject his explanation?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 10, 2010, 06:54:47 PM
Am I rejecting Manila Times editor Rene Bas’s explanation? Not at all! In fact, it perfectly dovetails with my contention that when the sense of a noun-phrase as subject is its totality, the singular verb is called for; it also perfectly dovetails with the rule cited by glensky: “When the mass noun has its own quantifier, the subject can take either singular or plural verb, depending on the number of the subject as indicated by the quantifier.” But again, as I explained using visuals in my posting before the last, a plural verb will be called for when the sense of the noun-phrase is not its totality but its separate, distinct components.

Take the case of Rene Bas’s first example, “Five meters of rope was needed.” There’s no arguing that the singular verb-form “was” is grammatically and notionally correct if the speaker is thinking of a contiguous piece of rope that’s five meters long. But if what the speaker (perhaps a magician) has in mind are five separate lengths of rope, each 1 meter long? Then I don’t think we can question that speaker’s use of the plural-form “were” when he makes a declaration like this: “For my magic act, five meters of rope were needed.” (If you are a newly hired assistant of this magician, of course, you probably would ask him to be more specific by asking, “You mean one contiguous piece of rope 5 meters long, or did you mean five lengths of rope that were 1-meter-long apiece?”) In any case, what we have here is a grammar situation similar to that of your “petrol” conundrum; you’ll use either the singular or plural form of the verb depending on what’s precisely on your mind. In other words, it’s your point of view that dictates whether you’ll use a singular or plural form of the verb.

As to the three other noun phrases given by Rene Bas, we have to examine them on a case-to-case basis. In the same way that I analyzed your “petrol” conundrum, we need to find out whether they are in the nature of countable physical matter (bottles of water, gallons of petrol) or countable but abstract concepts (years, study, length of experience). I’m sure you’ve already gotten the drift of my analysis by now so I’ll no longer belabor the point. I’ll just leave it up to you whether to accept my analysis of your “petrol” conundrum or stick to your own appreciation of it. Of course, if you come up with compelling fresh ideas to rebut my analysis, I’d be delighted to hear them.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 11, 2010, 09:48:32 PM
I agree with Joe's explanation on subject and verb agreement I posted on May 06, 2010. And as all erudite grammarians have experienced, grammar is a very deceiving subject because, at first glance, it may appear so a simple subject as new learners may see it. But, undoubtedly, it is a very intricate and complex subject due to its some undefined frontiers--we simply don't know where one part of speech ends and where another begins. Because of its complexities, it is quite important reader-learners ought to be analytical and precise in their perceptions.

This explanation is just a additional insight into more understanding the explanation I posted and a supplemental input to Joe's great discourse on Quantity and Measurement: Expression of measurements (miles, days, years, bushels, gallons, pounds, dollars, etc.) take a singular verb when referring to a total sum--an aggregate considered a single unit. When the units constituting the whole are considered individually or serially, the verb is plural.

Ex. Five months seems like a long time to wait.
     Those five months were spent developing a new process.
     A thousand bales of cotton was marketed that year.
     A thousand bales of cotton were stacked on the dock.
     
Maxsims will surely have a nice sleep tonight.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 14, 2010, 02:48:32 PM
My dear Glensky,

Thank you, I slept well indeed.    Probably much better than did you, considering the outcome of the Philippine elections.

I concur with your advice that readers-learners ought to be analytical and precise in their perceptions.   If you follow your own advice, you will have noticed that my latter argument with Joe centres not so much on what is or is not singular or plural but on a divergence of opinions (yours and his) over what is subject and what is modifier.   To recap:

Carillo:
Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Glensky:
Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier.

Carillo:
Good point, Glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.

Bemused readers:
 ??

Here we have Joe telling us what the subject is, then you coming along and telling us it is something else, and then Joe agrees with you.

When I pointed out this contradiction, Joe goes off into an epic, obfuscating explanation of a topic I was not referring to.    Not only shifting the goalposts again but playing another game!

As to your “rule” about mass nouns, I agree with it even though, to a degree, Fowler would take issue with you.

What riles me is people declaring nouns to be “notionally”singular or plural when they are plainly not.    If there is but one item, be it water, petrol, a year, a metre, a length, cats, dog, fire hydrant… whatever, then that item is logically, philologically, mathematically and grammatically singular.    If there are more than one, then those items are logically, philologically, mathematically and grammatically plural.   To make the distinction is why the terms were invented, one would think.

Noun phrases, however, are (is?) another matter.   The notional number given to such phrases (and to a certain few nouns like “team”) is an idiomatic device that has been in use for yonks and cannot be argued against.

Then Joe comes up with:

I'm very much aware that this subject-verb agreement issue remains highly contentious, but I have come to the conclusion that whether the verb in such cases should be singular or plural actually depends on the speaker's point of view.

That is all very well, but how can the reader know for certain the speaker’s point of view?    For all we know, he or she may simply have made a noun/verb agreement error!

(If you are a newly hired assistant of this magician, of course, you probably would ask him to be more specific by asking, “You mean one contiguous piece of rope 5 meters long, or did you mean five lengths of rope that were 1-meter-long apiece?”)

I think Joe meant “continuous”, and he meant to be consistent with his treatment of numbers.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 14, 2010, 03:36:33 PM
I think it's best for glensky himself to reply to this very interesting rejoinder by maxsims on the "petrol" subject-verb agreement conundrum. In any case, I'm too preoccupied at the moment doing the next edition of the Forum, which is due my midnight tonight. I just want to make a quick confirmation that contrary to what maxsims supposed, I meant "contiguous"--not "continuous"--when I wrote "contiguous" in my last posting in reference to the 5 meters of rope. Here's the definition of "contiguous" by my digital Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry:contiguous
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin contiguus, from contingere to have contact with — more at  CONTINGENT
Date: circa 1609

1 : being in actual contact  : touching along a boundary or at a point
2 of angles   : ADJACENT 2
3 : next or near in time or sequence
4 : touching or connected throughout in an unbroken sequence  <contiguous row houses>

synonyms see ADJACENT
  –contiguously adverb 
  –contiguousness noun

I do think that Def. 4 is the precise denotation of "contiguous" as used in my posting.
   
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 14, 2010, 06:35:15 PM
Yeah, right...!

Exactly what is touching or connected in your five metre length of rope? 
Describe the sequence. 
Is your good wife's tape measure a contiguous length of tape, or a continuous one?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 17, 2010, 12:37:43 AM
My goodness, maxsims, I never imagined that up to this time of your life, you still don’t have a clear idea of the distinction between the adjectives “contiguous” and “continuous”! I can tell you without any hesitation whatsoever that anybody’s tape measure—my wife’s or any other woman’s—is a “contiguous length of tape” and absolutely not “a continuous one.” I therefore wonder why you continue to insist on your own choice of word here as if it were a matter of life and death for you.

As I already pointed out in my earlier posting, I used “contiguous” in the sense of the following definition by my digital Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary: “4 : touching or connected throughout in an unbroken sequence  <contiguous row houses>.” In contrast, unless Australian dictionaries define it otherwise, “continuous” in the context of this discussion clearly means “marked by uninterrupted extension in space, time, or sequence,” as defined by my dictionary. Take note that the operative word in that definition is the word “extension,” whose noun form, “extend,” is defined by the same dictionary as follows:

Quote
extend
transitive verb 

1 : to spread or stretch forth  : UNBEND  <extended both her arms>
2 a : to stretch out to fullest length  b : to cause (as a horse) to move at full stride  c : to exert (oneself) to full capacity  <could work long and hard without seeming to extend himself>  d (1) : to increase the bulk of (as by adding a cheaper substance or a modifier)
5 a : to cause to reach (as in distance or scope)  <national authority was extended over new territories>  b : to cause to be longer  : PROLONG  <extend the side of a triangle>  <extended their visit another day>;  also   : to prolong the time of payment of  c : ADVANCE, FURTHER  <extending her potential through job training>
6 a : to cause to be of greater area or volume  : ENLARGE  <extended the patio to the back of the house>  b : to increase the scope, meaning, or application of  : BROADEN  <beauty, I suppose, opens the heart, extends the consciousness — Algernon Blackwood>

I have taken the trouble of giving you the entire set of definitions for the verb “extend” to impress on you that this word is meant to convey the idea of “spreading or stretching forth” in time or space, which is the sense of the adjective “continuous.” And that sense, I must tell you, is definitely not the sense meant and conveyed by this passage from my posting in question (boldfacing for emphasis mine):

Quote
There’s no arguing that the singular verb-form “was” is grammatically and notionally correct if the speaker is thinking of a contiguous piece of rope that’s five meters long. But if what the speaker (perhaps a magician) has in mind are five separate lengths of rope, each 1 meter long? Then I don’t think we can question that speaker’s use of the plural-form “were” when he makes a declaration like this: “For my magic act, five meters of rope were needed.” (If you are a newly hired assistant of this magician, of course, you probably would ask him to be more specific by asking, “You mean one contiguous piece of rope 5 meters long, or did you mean five lengths of rope that were 1-meter-long apiece?”)

I therefore maintain that “contiguous” is absolutely the correct word for the two instances of my usage of it above, in the precise sense of Def. 4, “touching or connected throughout in an unbroken sequence.” The wholeness of the piece of rope was the operative idea all throughout my discussion of it, and at no time was the idea of “spreading” or “extending” that length of rope ever suggested in the discussion. I therefore suggest that you relent on your insistence on “continuous” for this particular usage; if that’s not possible, though, you may want to seek the independent opinion of a higher lexicographic authority. Once you get it, please don’t hesitate to share it with us by posting it in the Forum.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 17, 2010, 04:43:03 PM
My goodness, Joe Carillo, I never imagined that, up to this stage of your life, you still don't have a clear distinction between the adjectives "contiguous" and "continuous".   Neither did I imagine that you would resort, yet again, to goalpost shifting in that you subject us to a homily on "extend", which is entirely irrelevant to the comparison at hand.

But, taking up your challenge, herewith some more dictionary definitions, plus some synonyms from Roget:

Oxford
Contiguous:  1 sharing a common border. 2 next or together in sequence
Continuous:  without interruption

Funk &Wagnall
Contiguous:  1 touching at the edge of boundary   2 close, but not touching; adjacent
Continuous:  Extended or prolonged without break

Cambridge
Contiguous:  Next to or touching another (usually similar) thing
Continuous:  Without pause or interruption

Roget
Contiguous:  touching, in contact; tangential, abutting, end-to-end
Continuous:  unbroken, uninterrupted

I think these definitions align closely with those in your beloved Merriam-Webster (especially definition 1).    I also think that these are the commonly-understood definitions.

It logically follows, I suggest, that a thing cannot be contiguous unless there is something else for it to be contiguous to.   Your 5-metre length of rope does not meet this requirement.

(By the way, should not there be a parenthetical comma after "that" in your opening sentence?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 17, 2010, 09:03:00 PM
Just a cursory reading of the definitions and synonyms you posted shows how false and untenable your appreciation is of what “contiguous” means. On the contrary, they actually support what I precisely meant by my use of that word:

Oxford: contiguous: 2 next or together in sequence; Funk & Wagnall’s: contiguous:  1 touching at the edge of boundary; Cambridge: contiguous:  Next to or touching another (usually similar) thing; and Roget’s Thesaurus: contiguous:  touching, in contact; tangential, abutting, end-to-end.

You say that the definitions you cited for “contiguous” and “continuous” are “the commonly-understood definitions.” I say that this is a highly presumptuous and gratuitous statement that’s not borne out by the definitions you offered; rather than being the “commonly understood” definitions, I think these definitions only reveal the parochial if not chauvinistic limits of your understanding.

I also find it absurd that once again, you accuse me of “goalpost shifting” by identifying “extend” as the operative meaning in the definitions of “continuous.” To a person with an objective, unjaundiced mind, what I did was actually “goalpost setting”—to establish a common ground for rationally understanding the issue at hand.

In fact, maxsims, I do think it was you who did the goalpost-shifting here just to start a needless linguistic raucous. Remember asking the following question to establish your argument? “Exactly what is touching or connected in your five metre length of rope?” My original phrasing was “one contiguous piece of rope 5 meters long.” Not that it matters much to the argument, but you unilaterally changed the physical noun “piece” to the abstract noun “length” so you can have a basis for a wrongheaded harangue that started with this belligerent statement: “I think Joe meant ‘continuous’, and he meant to be consistent with his treatment of numbers.” Now that’s what I’d call “goalpost shifting.”

So, in closing, maxsims, you may want to ponder this question tonight: Which of these noun phrases do you think makes semantic sense: “one contiguous piece of rope,” or “one continuous piece of rope”? Methinks the first—my original phrasing—does. As to the second, I think that to begin with, it’s enough rope to hang the body of your argument by its neck.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: vinzvonvan on May 17, 2010, 10:09:01 PM
"As to the second, I think that to begin with, it’s enough rope to hang the body of your argument by its neck."This made me laugh... :D
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: hill roberts on May 18, 2010, 01:42:39 AM
Since I, too, am confused, I asked my English husband which is which:

His answer: "Five gallons of petrol is not enough."

Or perhaps, I should have said:

Since I am confused too, I asked my English husband which is which: :D
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 18, 2010, 06:53:11 AM
My dear Joe,

Why don't you put the question to your journalist friends?

(And, while I was being driven along that continuous  (you would say "contiguous") stretch of road from Subic to Manila, it occurred to me that you have yet to reply to my original argument, to wit:

Carillo:
Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Glensky:
Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier.

Carillo:
Good point, Glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.

Bemused readers:
 ??

Here we have Joe telling us what the subject is, then you coming along and telling us it is something else, and then Joe agrees with you.)
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 18, 2010, 08:19:25 AM
It looks like while traveling, you missed my graphics-supported reply to your observation about this "petrol" subject-verb agreement conundrum. Please check back to Reply #20 and Reply #21, both dated May 9, in this discussion thread. I really thought that my explanation in those two postings would be enough to clarify this contentious issue, but here we are still at loggerheads over it.

As to your suggestion that I ask my journalist friends which of these two phrases is semantically correct, “one contiguous piece of rope” or “one continuous piece of rope,” I think that's a good idea. I'll pass the question around and I'll post in the Forum whatever their opinions might be. I hope his arrangement suits you fine.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 18, 2010, 03:43:06 PM
Subject and verb agreement is not that difficult to understand if, indeed, one wants to constructively appreciate it. And since language has never been substantially enough to comprehensively depict my thoughts about it, allow me to dissect the sentence “He discovered that those many gallons of petrol was not enough to take him to Sydney” so that, somehow, some issues could be eventually made transparent to those bewildered and parched learning minds. 
 
The sentence pattern is S-V-DO, and the part we disagreed on is the DO “that those many gallons of petrol was not enough to take him to Sydney.” I would like to emphasize, as Maxsims would agree, the complete subject of the sentence is “those many gallons of petrol” but the simple subject really is “gallons.” Be it a single-word subject, subject phrase, or subject clause, none really is a problem so long as we know how to exactly spot the true and simple subject.  The other parts are just modifiers making the simple subject specific in meaning and plain to readers’ understanding.

“THAT THOSE MANY GALLONS OF PETROL WAS NOT ENOUGH TO TAKE HIM TO SYDNEY…”

Before the simple subject, there are two modifiers, “those and many.” After the simple subject, there is this phrasal modifier “of petrol.” So, the main consideration for choosing the right number of verb should be the simple subject “gallons” and the two modifiers before it, “those and many.”  “Many” originally is a pronoun and is always indicating plurality; “those,” is, at all times, indicating and emphasizing plurality and individuality to mean, as far as the subordinate clause above is concerned, that every one (1) gallon is considered valuable and significant to getting him to Sydney. In effect, the main consideration is not the entirety of the many gallons of petrol which can be considered a single unit, but, take note, each petrol-holding gallon composing and contributing to the many holding-gallons of petrol. “Petrol,” though it’s the operative subject, has not that much value in determining the number of verb that should be used and not the controlling word. Accordingly,the verb should be "were."

By the way, Maxsims, what is the function of “that” in that subordinate clause above? 
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 19, 2010, 07:56:51 AM
My dear Joe,

Taking your advice, I referred back to your replies of May 9.   What did I find?   Yet another explanation of the noun/verb number conundrum!

Let me make it clear (as I believe it already is) that I am NOT disputing your position on this matter; we think alike.

What I AM querying is your apparent change of mind over what constitutes the subject in a particular sentence.    To repeat (ad nauseam):

Carillo:
Grammatically, of course, the verb should take the singular form because the operative subject in the noun phrase “those many gallons of petrol” isn’t the plural “those many gallons” but the singular mass noun “petrol.”

Glensky:
Just like the second example, "many gallons" is the real subject." "Of petrol" is a modifier.

Carillo:
Good point, Glensky! I absolutely agree with your explanation.

I ask again: is there not a contradiction here?

A simple 'yes' of 'no' will suffice.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 19, 2010, 08:33:24 AM
My simple answer is, "No, there's no contradiction." The problem here is, I think, that you want to box in things as simply black or white, with no grays in between; well, English grammar--like the world itself--just isn't like that. I suppose this as as true with the English in Australia as it is with the English in most of the civilized world. I suggest you read my explanation again, more closely and more objectively this time:

In his posting, Forum member maxsims, citing bemused readers that presumably include himself, raised doubts about the following grammar rule cited by glensky:

“When the mass noun has its own quantifier, the subject can take either singular or plural verb, depending on the number of the subject as indicated by the quantifier.”

I said in an earlier posting that I absolutely agree with glensky’s explanation for this rule. Also, as I said in my later posting today, I have come to the conclusion that whether the verb in such cases should be singular or plural actually depends on the speaker’s point of view. This conclusion is entirely consistent with glensky’s examples and his explanations for the rule he cited.

Let’s examine glensky’s first sample sentence:

“Five bottles of water are enough to quench our thirst.”

If the water comes in five separate, distinct bottles, as shown in the illustration below, then it would make sense and it would be notionally correct to consider the subject of the sentence above as “five bottles,” which, of course, is plural. The plural form of the operative verb, “are,” would then be called for.

(http://josecarilloforum.com/imgs/5Bottles.png)

Of course, also as clarified in the illustration, the use of the singular verb “is” isn't debatable when only one bottle is involved:

“One bottle of water is enough to quench our thirst.”

This is because “one bottle” and “water” are both grammatically and notionally singular. 

But the grammar situation is different in the case of glensky’s other sentence:

Those many gallons of petrol are not sufficient to fuel my car.”

We can presume here that the speaker is looking at a large container containing petrol, but he estimates that the petrol it contains won’t be enough for his car. In his mind, as made clear by his use of the plural article “those,” he looks at petrol in terms of the countable gallons inside that container. From both the grammatical and notional standpoint, therefore, he has no choice but to use the plural-form verb “are” in that sentence. This can be better appreciated by examining the illustration below.


(http://josecarilloforum.com/imgs/2Bottles.png)
On the other hand, also as shown in the second illustration, the use of the singular verb “is” isn't debatable when only one countable gallon of petrol is involved, as “one gallon” and “petrol” are both grammatically and notionally singular:

“One gallon of petrol is not sufficient to fuel my car.”

I hope that this explanation and the graphics I have provided have clarified this contentious grammar issue once and for all.


 
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 19, 2010, 11:36:03 AM
It doesn't matter how carefully you read your "explanation" (read "obfuscation"), the black and white (not grey) facts are: you say the subject of the sentence is "petrol".   Then Glensky says it is "many gallons"; and you agree with him!     Which is it?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 19, 2010, 12:14:40 PM
Since your brain automatically rejects any explanation other than what's already hard-wired there, there's not much I can do at this point. This is becoming so tiresome. Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights. I think the Forum members following this discussion have learned enough from this protracted exchange and can very well make up their minds about the usage at issue here. Let's spare them from any more browbeating.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 20, 2010, 08:12:45 AM
Suits me, Joe Carillo.

The Forum members will have learned a lot, principally that the sentence, "He discovered that those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney", has two subjects: "petrol" and "many gallons".

The Forum members will also have learned a lot about us!    :D
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 21, 2010, 08:13:15 AM
"Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights."

The usual English idiom is "by your (his, her etc) own lights".
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 21, 2010, 01:23:01 PM
I don’t see why you want me and everyone else to toe the line and use what you call “the usual English idiom” to express ourselves. “By your (his, her) own lights” may be “usual” to you but not to me and other English speakers. In fact, the expression “to the best of your lights” is widely acceptable as well, and so with “to the best of my lights” and “to the best of his lights.” I don’t think it’s wise to think of English—and any language for that matter—as a straitjacket. If you are a language teacher, this is a surefire way to stifle both creativity and spontaneity of expression. I suggest you loosen up a bit.

Check out these Google entries to appreciate what I’m saying:
“to the best of my lights,” 69,300 entries (http://www.google.com.ph/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22to+the+best+of+my+lights%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
69,300 results)
“to the best of his lights,” 86,000 entries (http://www.google.com.ph/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22to+the+best+of+his+lights%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 21, 2010, 04:07:02 PM
"by his own lights"....196,000,000 entries
"by your own lights"..396,000,000 entries

I suppose it all depends on what you mean.   In those English-speaking countries that I've visited (and I've visited quite a few), "by your own lights" is idiomatic for "in your own opinion".   If, as you imply, "to the best of your own lights" is synonymous with "by your own lights", one is moved to ask, "Why do we need a second idiom.?   If the two terms are not synonymous, what does "to the best of your own lights" mean?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 21, 2010, 08:20:41 PM
As I presume you know very well, maxsims, idioms and idiomatic expressions are not deliberately created or minted. They evolve on their own and are sometimes transmogrified by the many users of the language in different places in the course of time. So I think your question, “Why do we need a second idiom?”, is practically meaningless. Also, I believe your predilection to put English—even its idioms—in your self-styled straitjacket is terribly wrongheaded, sometimes even bizarre. To help you realize this, I invite you to go over, say, the list of 3,347 English idioms in the UsingEnglish.com website (http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/). You’ll discover that particular idiomatic expressions could have two or as many as three recognized variants, depending on country and region. For the well-traveled person that you have projected yourself in the Forum, I really find it strange that you’d engage in the needless, fruitless exercise of insisting on your own variants of idiomatic expressions. Hasn’t it dawned on you yet that English idioms are neither your monopoly nor mine nor anyone’s, and that they won’t allow themselves to be boxed in by idiosyncratic, sometimes even petty or capricious choices for this or that idiom?

P.S. And by the way, you’re actually the first English-speaking person I know to ever use and insist on the idiomatic expression “by your own lights.” Frankly, no matter its currency in your neck of the woods in Australia or elsewhere, it sounds contrived and unnatural to me. Everybody else in my circle of acquaintance—whether domestic or foreign—uses “to the best of your (his, her) lights.” Doesn’t this tell you something about the nature of idiomatic expressions as actually used in this planet?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 22, 2010, 07:40:35 AM
Err, Joe Carillo, kindly show me where I "insisted" on the use of "by your own lights".    Did I not merely point out what I believe to be the common expression?   I do wish you would refrain from putting words into my mouth.

As for me trying to keep English in a straitjacket, was it not you who complained bitterly when I inadvertently altered "piece" of rope to "length" of rope?   (Your Merriam-Webster makes little, if any, distinction.)

Your advice to me was "lighten up".    Perhaps you should take it, too.   :)
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 22, 2010, 11:51:58 PM
To: Forum’s members

There, indeed, are some glitches I bumped into—when I read some compositions made by some Forum’s members—some constructions that perplexed me to the bone and made me to react somehow on some of them, to wit:

      1. I arrive home late.
      2. Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.

I have posted them not to offend anyone who has written and posted them but rather to ask the Forum’s members to enlighten and assist me to arrive at the right answer. These are my queries, namely:

      1. Is the verb “arrive” transitive or intransitive?
      2. What is the function of the word “home” in the sentence above?
      3. Is there any word missing in the clause “what you think to the best of your lights.”
      4. If there is none, can anyone tell me whether or not it is a clause? And if it be, what is the
         function of this clause in sentence no. 2?

P. S. Since the Forum is the place where INTELLECTUALS learn more about the English Usage and, perhaps, the place where they stay with in their free-time, I suggest members should, more than ever, be extra-careful about what they are posting. If in doubt really, better yet to get educated opinions from the members who are, at all times, willing to share their knowledge of the English Usage and adept in syntactical and parsing equation.

Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 23, 2010, 08:25:41 AM
Now he is taking issue with me again. He adamantly disagrees with my conclusion that in sentences like this one of his, “Five gallons of petrol (is, are) not enough to get you to Sydney,” the verb could either be singular or plural depending on the speaker’s or the writer’s point of view. “You can’t have it both ways,” he insists.

Carillo, just how long do you intend to continue with this fiction?

Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 23, 2010, 09:19:42 AM
If you can tell me precisely what your beef is about that statement, I'd be delighted to give you a categorical answer.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 23, 2010, 11:06:36 AM
To: Forum’s members

There, indeed, are some glitches I bumped into—when I read some compositions made by some Forum’s members—some constructions that perplexed me to the bone and made me to react somehow on some of them, to wit:

      1. I arrive home late.
      2. Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.

I have posted them not to offend anyone who has written and posted them but rather to ask the Forum’s members to enlighten and assist me to arrive at the right answer. These are my queries, namely:

      1. Is the verb “arrive” transitive or intransitive?
      2. What is the function of the word “home” in the sentence above?
      3. Is there any word missing in the clause “what you think to the best of your lights.”
      4. If there is none, can anyone tell me whether or not it is a clause? And if it be, what is the
         function of this clause in sentence no. 2?

P. S. Since the Forum is the place where INTELLECTUALS learn more about the English Usage and, perhaps, the place where they stay with in their free-time, I suggest members should, more than ever, be extra-careful about what they are posting. If in doubt really, better yet to get educated opinions from the members who are, at all times, willing to share their knowledge of the English Usage and adept in syntactical and parsing equation.


Here are some thoughts of mine about the questions raised in your posting:

1. The verb “arrive” is always intransitive, which means that it doesn’t need a direct object or receiver of its action; we can say, “They arrived,” and that’s that. In contrast, transitive verbs like “slap” always need a direct object or receiver of the action; otherwise, the sentence simply wouldn’t work or make sense, as in this inchoate fragment of a thought: “We slapped.”

2. In the sentence “I arrive home late,” the noun “home” is simply a complement of the verb “arrive,” not a direct object or receiver of its action. A complement is, of course, any added word or expression by which a predication is made complete (as “chairman” in “They elected Jonathan chairman” and “distasteful” in “We thought the act distasteful.”

3. As to your question: “Is there any word missing in the clause ‘what you think to the best of your lights’?” No, I don’t think so. It only seems there’s a missing word because the phrase was detached from this complete sentence: “Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.” In that sentence, the prepositional phrase “to the best of your lights” actually modifies the verb phrase “go on.” This becomes clearer when the sentence rewritten this way: “Just go on to the best of your lights with what you think.”

4. No, “what you think to the best of your lights” isn’t a clause but a phrase, although the subordinate clause “what you think” is embedded in that phrase as the object of the preposition “with” in the complete sentence, “Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.”   

Now, as to your postscript, let me just clarify that Jose Carillo’s English Forum is not meant to be an exclusive haven for intellectuals or experts, whether in English grammar or any other discipline. It’s for everybody who wants to improve his or her English proficiency or who wish to share his or her English expertise with learners. Forum members can therefore freely post their assertions, questions, thoughts, and doubts about English grammar and usage in the discussion boards, with the expectation that other Forum members—not necessarily the moderator (that’s me)—will make an appropriate instructive or corrective response. There’s really no need to be too cautious or too careful in one’s postings in the Forum; all that’s needed is an open mind willing to be helped or willing to help others in matters of English grammar and usage.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 23, 2010, 04:49:02 PM
My beef, to use your quaint Americanism, is simply this:  the statement is a lie!

As you well know, I have no quarrel with you over the singular vs plural argument; I agree with you.  (By the way, the shortened statement you used in the Times is not mine, as you allege; it is a quote that I merely provided for discussion.   You are well aware of that fact.)

As all Forum readers know by now, my "beef" is your refusal to acknowledge that you gave the tick of approval to Glensky's nomination of the subject in the sentence we were discussing, a nomination at odds with your own earlier nomination.  "Many gallons" vs "petrol", to refresh your memory.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 23, 2010, 05:46:23 PM
To make that blatant accusation, maxsims, it looks like you have grossly misappreciated the facts and the nature of our discussions and your role in it. You say, "I have no quarrel with you over the singular vs plural argument; I agree with you," but you have actually been so confrontational and disagreeable most of the time over that issue, even nitpicking on a lot of tangential things like a missing comma and things of that sort. You certainly had not made it clear that you agreed with me on anything; in fact, when you resurfaced in the Forum after a long absence, it seemed to me that you were acting like a blind bull let loose on a china shop, smashing everything in its path.

I truly value your active participation in the Forum, maxsims, but I suggest you cool down and be more circumspect with what you say here and how you say it. Indeed, during the past several days, a number of Forum members had actually asked me in private why you're so confrontational, but I've always deflected the issue by telling them that it's just your way and that you don't really mean to be that mean when you disagree with someone or when someone disagrees with you.

Having said that, maxsims, let me now conclude this posting by saying that I actually have no quarrel with you on anything. Everything to me is academic and par for the course. You remain most welcome in the Forum but I beg you to make a stronger effort to help me make it a less scary place for members, particularly the new ones; they should be able to ask questions or express their views about English grammar and usage without being browbeaten or shamed into submission. In short, if there are times that we must grapple with our private demons, let's do it privately outside the Forum's discussion boards. I think you'll agree with me that the Forum members deserve a friendly, pleasant, and supportive atmosphere whenever they find time or have a need to join the discussions here. 8)

     
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: maxsims on May 23, 2010, 06:53:27 PM
My dear Joe,

It is enormously difficult to remain polite in the face of your continuing refusal to answer a simple question.

Which, Forum members will again note, you have done again!   

Neither have you refuted my claim that your statement in the Times is wrong, incorrect, false, in error, misleading etc.(take your pick).

By the way, where did "blind" (as in blind bull in a china shop) come from?   The only time I've encountered this expression was in a rather course rock song.   
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 23, 2010, 10:42:27 PM
To: The Forum's Members

I agree with Joe’s explanation as far as my second sentence is involved. Really, it is a very well-said explanation, and, indeed, I can’t ask for more. However, with respect to my first sentence, I’m a little bit confounded because I can’t see how the word “home” becomes the complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” If it be a complement, what kind of complement may it be? This is the question, and I invite all, including Maxsims the Red Bull, to participate to solve this quandary if there be any... If there be none, tell me straight to my face by giving me substantially profound explanation.

Certainly and notably, I never dare hint that the Forum has its own exclusivity. I, rather, have emphasized other notional insight than what other has perceived. As the Forum’s members can see, the word “intellectual” ought to be interpreted in consideration of the entire subordinate clause where it is found. Only then, its meaning is complete and intellectually workable.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 23, 2010, 11:55:35 PM
My dear Joe,

It is enormously difficult to remain polite in the face of your continuing refusal to answer a simple question.

Which, Forum members will again note, you have done again!   

Neither have you refuted my claim that your statement in the Times is wrong, incorrect, false, in error, misleading etc.(take your pick).

By the way, where did "blind" (as in blind bull in a china shop) come from?   The only time I've encountered this expression was in a rather course rock song.   


ANNOUNCEMENT:

Due to his intractable and disruptive behavior in the Forum, we are banning maxsims from the discussion boards for a period of one month effective immediately. We are constrained to do this to protect the Forum from being compromised by seriously immoderate language and recriminatory behavior.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 24, 2010, 01:03:02 AM
To: The Forum's Members

I agree with Joe’s explanation as far as my second sentence is involved. Really, it is a very well-said explanation, and, indeed, I can’t ask for more. However, with respect to my first sentence, I’m a little bit confounded because I can’t see how the word “home” becomes the complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” If it be a complement, what kind of complement may it be? This is the question, and I invite all, including Maxsims the Red Bull, to participate to solve this quandary if there be any... If there be none, tell me straight to my face by giving me substantially profound explanation.

You’re not alone in being confounded by my statement that in the sentence “I arrive home late,” the noun “home” is actually a complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” This state of affairs is actually a very slippery thing that’s not usually discussed in general English grammar. In linguistics, however, “home” in that sentence construction is called a predicative adjunct or optional complement. The predicative adjunct is defined as a predicative expression that conveys information about the subject but is not the main predicate of the clause. The predicative adjunct works in two ways:

1. As a depictive secondary predicate, as the adjective “black” in “We drink our coffee black.”
2. As a resultative secondary predicate, as the adjective “blue” in “We painted the wall blue.”

Like “black” and “blue” in the two sentences above, “home” in “I arrive home late” is an optional complement because the sentence can actually stand without it: “I arrive late.” Both “black” and “blue” are also optional in their respective sentences: “We drink our coffee.” “We painted the wall.”
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: hill roberts on May 24, 2010, 05:26:28 PM
Aww, that hurts. I shall miss the banter, although I must say that maxsims has become unreasonable of late. He was arguing for the sake of arguing, and wouldn't let it drop. He sounded like a housewife, disgruntled at the poor facilities of his kitchen and not knowing where to find the basic tools but for the knife that he tried to use a few times in the rowdy discussion that ensued. Still, I look forward to his re-appearance. 8)  ::)I'm not looking for blood-letting ;D, only a discussion that would take a certain topic to another level. Other Forum members, I'm sure, would be able to do it, once the windsurfing  has dwindled and swimmers take command of the calm seas again.  :-*
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 24, 2010, 11:36:32 PM
To: The Forum’s members

As ever often, confounded by the statement “I arrived home late” I have still been. And as predicate adjunct was explained, there are questions surfacing and rippling the quiet of my comprehension. It has been clearly said “home” is a predicate adjunct and is a complement that says something about the subject. “I arrived home late.” If, indeed, it is as explained,in whatever way does the word “home” describe the subject? Does it in any way characterize the subject?

There are two (2) examples given to facilitate our comprehension re the point of discourse “home,” viz:

1.   “We drink our coffee black.”
2.   “We painted the wall blue.”

Clearly, in these two (2) examples given, “black and blue” are adjectives and modify some words in the two (2) sentences. On the other hand, “I arrived home late,” is not, as far as my own thought is concerned, the same sentence pattern as those examples given. There lies now the problem because how can we now specifically classify the word “home” as part of speech. If it be a complement, what kind of complement it is? If we comply with the examples given above and assume the sentence “I arrive home late” is the same pattern as the examples, I will say that “late” is the complementary adjectival modifier and “home” is the action-receiving sentence component. I start to toy and entertain that idea. However, will it not result to absurdity?

I think this is the stage where I would like you all to participate by giving your additional inputs to the Discussion Board, and I believe things shall be easier then. Simply dig-in and hand-in whatever insights about the subject you may have. Don’t hold back since you all are part of this constructive discussion.

Now, let’s discuss the “optional complement.” The (two) 2 words are irreconcilable. How can a word that completes be optional? Anything that completes something is not optional, but, rather, it is basic and essential. Just like the pillars of a house, they complete the house; therefore, essential… I know this is not Forum’s members’ concoction, but someone else’s… This is a clear issue of misnomer.

We must be critical of authors feeding us their ideas because, sometimes, their egocentricity is well-entrenched in their works. As a result, their works become highly doubtful and self-centered. We must judge their works and filter them. As always, we make the final analysis if we eat and digest them, or otherwise…

Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 25, 2010, 08:28:06 AM
I welcome Glensky’s invitation to Forum members to help shed light on the seemingly confusing usage of the complement “home” in the sentence “I arrive home late.” I don’t wish to preempt the views of other Forum members on the subject, so I just would like to clarify that the word “home” in that sentence isn’t functioning as a noun but as an adverb; indeed, it’s important to know that “home” can be a noun, adjective, or adverb depending on how it is used in a sentence.

Here’s the definition of “home” as an adverb by my Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:   

Quote
home
Function: adverb
Date: before 12th century

1 : to or at one's home  <go home>  <stayed home all day>
2 a : to a final, closed, or ultimate position  <drive a nail homeb : to or at an ultimate objective (as a goal or finish line)
3 : to a vital sensitive core  <the truth struck home>
  –home free : out of jeopardy  : in a comfortable position with respect to some objective

Of course, “home” can also serve as an adjective, as in “home office,” “home remedies,” and “home cooking.”

Now I leave Glensky’s questions and observations about the predicate adjunct open for discussion by the Forum members.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: vans26 on May 27, 2010, 10:30:22 AM
Hello Sir Joe.    I am shy to join in before but I think what you do to maxsims is not fair.   He agree with you about what is singular and plural but you do not answer about the subject of the sentence where glensky and you give different subjects.

Also, what did your colleagues say about continuous/contiguous?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 27, 2010, 01:26:10 PM
I’m glad you have conquered your shyness and made your very first posting in the Forum.

About the matter of fairness: If you’ll just go over the discussion thread on subject-verb agreement from the very beginning, you’d find that I’ve already given very detailed answers to every question maxsims had asked—in fact, much more than what’s normally called for under the circumstances. Some of the questions were even regurgitated ones just meant to harass. Indeed, the problem was that maxsims would only accept answers that he wanted to hear; no amount of explanation would suffice unless it confirms his own preconceived answers to his own questions.

I would like to assure you that as a rule, the Forum normally gives a very long rope even to highly charged and confrontational exchanges of views. What isn’t acceptable is immoderate language along with recriminatory behavior in the discussion boards. This is the reason for the action taken with respect to maxsim’s participation in the discussion boards.

As to the word choice between “continuous” and “contiguous,” it’s a good thing you reminded me. The matter somehow slipped my mind. Right after this, I’ll sound off some of my fellow English-usage writers about the issue and I’ll let you know as soon as I get their feedback.
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: vans26 on May 27, 2010, 04:11:25 PM
OK Sir Joe.   Then let me ask.....what is the subject in "Those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney."?
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 27, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
As to this sentence, "Those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney," the full subject of the sentence is the noun phrase "those many gallons of petrol." The speaker, by using the plural form adjective "those," obviously thinks of the petrol in terms of the number of gallons. The operative subject would then be the plural "those many gallons," the verb would be the plural form "were," and "of petrol" would just be a modifier of the noun phrase: "Those many gallons of petrol were not enough to get him to Sydney."

However, as I contended in my previous postings following the grammar prescription posted by glensky, that same quantity of petrol would be singular if the speaker thinks of it as a total entity, say the entire contents of a 5-gallon petrol container. From his or her standpoint, it would then be correct to use the singular verb-form "was" in this statement: "Five gallons of petrol is not enough to get him to Sydney." This time, the operative subject is the singular mass noun "petrol" and the words "five gallons of" is just a modifier of that operative subject.

This is what I meant when I explained that when the subject of a sentence is a noun phrase with a modifier, whether that subject should be treated as singular or plural actually depends on the speaker's point of view--in other words, on how he or she looks at the subject being talked about.     
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: vans26 on May 27, 2010, 07:32:39 PM
The operative subject would then be the plural "those many gallons," the verb would be the plural form "was," ....

Confusing....
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: Joe Carillo on May 27, 2010, 07:48:23 PM
Oops, sorry for that proofreading error! That phrase should read "the verb would be the plural form "were," so the complete sentence should read as follows:

Quote
The operative subject would then be the plural "those many gallons," the verb would be the singular form "was," and "of petrol" would just be a modifier of the noun phrase: "Those many gallons of petrol were not enough to get him to Sydney."

The 37 to 30 Centigrade heat must have gotten into my brain. Once again, my apologies!

(Having taken note of the error, I'll now correct the erroneous posting to avoid any more confusion.)
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on May 27, 2010, 09:56:52 PM
To: The Forum’s Members

"Those many gallons of petrol was not enough to get him to Sydney." Still, the simple subject is “gallons” and the correct verb-form is “were.” Anyhow, Vans26  can refer to my posting on page 2, dated May 11, 2010. My explanation there is substantially enough to make things clear, certainly.

Nothing really changes except the discussion on the subject and verb agreement starts to flare up again, but not as hellish as once it was. We should understand that, sometimes, we, as human beings, make some oversights. But that’s very understandable because committing omissions is remindingly contributing to our own nature as God’s creation-we still are human; therefore, not perfect… We should learn to read beyond the lines, and not to always expect a straight answer.

There are two (2) purposes why we ask questions: first, we really don’t know the answer; second, we want to measure and quantify the degree of knowledge a certain person possesses. Doing the second is common, as I have observed, at the Forum. Eventually, it shall be an open battlefield to all members where one can attack others’ fortresses, and the attacked, evidently, will surely offer their impregnable defenses.

Re Maxsims suspension is not that appalling at all because of the behavior he has exhibited to the Forum which really warranted the imposition of penalty. Indeed, we should be reminded the Forum has its own policy to comply with so that descent discussion can be effected without distraction, and it shall be a better site for all willing to participate in the Discussion Board.

Perhaps, Joe’s action has been given ambiguous meaning because of the Forum’s past set up where Maxsims relentlessly attacked Joe at whatever angle he could and at any chance he could hold of. Nevertheless, we can’t change what Joe has imposed on Maxsims unless the Forum will allow any member to file a motion for reconsideration to allow him to reconsider what he has imposed on Maxsims.

To observe neutrality and due process, I suggest the Forum should create 13 man team to serve as the Forum’s justice panel in charge of evaluating complaints and rendering the appropriate decisions and penalties on whatever issue or complaint brought to its attention. And majority vote is needed to impose a penalty on whoever is accused of any offense. By doing this, members can be assured of an independent and disinterested and unbiased and impartial decision.
 
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: jonathanfvaldez on June 05, 2010, 04:09:55 PM
today, i returned to the Forum, after being inactive for more than six months, and was surprised to learn about maxsims's suspension.  i was surprised not because of the suspension but because it took a long time before maxsims was suspended.  you see, even before my inactivity, i sensed that maxsims's tone was confrontational and at times even belligerent in his responses.  at the very least, maxsims didn't seem willing to help others reach the apparent high level of English proficiency that he or she has managed to attain. truth is, his or her cantankerousness is a factor in my hiatus.  i just felt that maxsims's trademark attitude of "win-the-debate-and-embarass-the-other-party-at-all-cost" ( i hope i would be spared from maxsims's ascerbic review on his or her return for my ignorance of an idiom or proper phrase in place of the long-winded phrase above --- or anything else in here that he or she might fancy as worthy of a response ---) has no place in a forum, such as this Forum, mainly geared to educate its members.  that it took a long time before the suspension is a testament to Joe's patience and "bigger take on things." (i don't know if this is a proper idiom, but i'm using it anyway.)
as for your suggestion for a panel to observe due process, i disagree. this is joe's forum, and he has his rules. we are mere invitees. in any event, due process, i believe, was observed. maxsims was given a lot of "warnings" (which maxsims simply ignored).
changing the topic, i came across a very helpful grammar book that is basically a condensed version of Joe's "Winning Edge" book.  it's titled "Woe Is I" by Patricia Conner, and i got new one cheap ($7) online. just the witty and funny writing style is worth every cent. cheers!   
Title: Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
Post by: glensky on June 05, 2010, 08:59:43 PM
To: The Forum's Members

At whatever angle you look at it, it's just a suggestion. The decision, whether or not to heed it, now all depends on the person or persons concerned.

Additionally, disagreeing is simply a part of free thoughts, and we can disagree with anyone on any issue  at hand. However, to disagree with someone by merely saying "it's Joe's Forum" is a little bit disconcerting and discomposing. We are in a democratic society where due process has been observed since the birth of our government. To advise otherwise is to suggest and scaffold autocracy where only one exercises infinite discretionary powers.

Certainly, I never hint at someone's or anyone's having exercised such. Conversely, my argument is basically based on logically comprehensive philosophical approach, anchored on some considered premises said by some posters.