Author Topic: Subject-Verb Agreement?  (Read 84091 times)

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2010, 08:13:15 AM »
"Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights."

The usual English idiom is "by your (his, her etc) own lights".
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 08:14:56 AM by maxsims »

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2010, 01:23:01 PM »
I don’t see why you want me and everyone else to toe the line and use what you call “the usual English idiom” to express ourselves. “By your (his, her) own lights” may be “usual” to you but not to me and other English speakers. In fact, the expression “to the best of your lights” is widely acceptable as well, and so with “to the best of my lights” and “to the best of his lights.” I don’t think it’s wise to think of English—and any language for that matter—as a straitjacket. If you are a language teacher, this is a surefire way to stifle both creativity and spontaneity of expression. I suggest you loosen up a bit.

Check out these Google entries to appreciate what I’m saying:
“to the best of my lights,” 69,300 entries
“to the best of his lights,” 86,000 entries

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2010, 04:07:02 PM »
"by his own lights"....196,000,000 entries
"by your own lights"..396,000,000 entries


I suppose it all depends on what you mean.   In those English-speaking countries that I've visited (and I've visited quite a few), "by your own lights" is idiomatic for "in your own opinion".   If, as you imply, "to the best of your own lights" is synonymous with "by your own lights", one is moved to ask, "Why do we need a second idiom.?   If the two terms are not synonymous, what does "to the best of your own lights" mean?

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2010, 08:20:41 PM »
As I presume you know very well, maxsims, idioms and idiomatic expressions are not deliberately created or minted. They evolve on their own and are sometimes transmogrified by the many users of the language in different places in the course of time. So I think your question, “Why do we need a second idiom?”, is practically meaningless. Also, I believe your predilection to put English—even its idioms—in your self-styled straitjacket is terribly wrongheaded, sometimes even bizarre. To help you realize this, I invite you to go over, say, the list of 3,347 English idioms in the UsingEnglish.com website. You’ll discover that particular idiomatic expressions could have two or as many as three recognized variants, depending on country and region. For the well-traveled person that you have projected yourself in the Forum, I really find it strange that you’d engage in the needless, fruitless exercise of insisting on your own variants of idiomatic expressions. Hasn’t it dawned on you yet that English idioms are neither your monopoly nor mine nor anyone’s, and that they won’t allow themselves to be boxed in by idiosyncratic, sometimes even petty or capricious choices for this or that idiom?

P.S. And by the way, you’re actually the first English-speaking person I know to ever use and insist on the idiomatic expression “by your own lights.” Frankly, no matter its currency in your neck of the woods in Australia or elsewhere, it sounds contrived and unnatural to me. Everybody else in my circle of acquaintance—whether domestic or foreign—uses “to the best of your (his, her) lights.” Doesn’t this tell you something about the nature of idiomatic expressions as actually used in this planet?

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2010, 07:40:35 AM »
Err, Joe Carillo, kindly show me where I "insisted" on the use of "by your own lights".    Did I not merely point out what I believe to be the common expression?   I do wish you would refrain from putting words into my mouth.

As for me trying to keep English in a straitjacket, was it not you who complained bitterly when I inadvertently altered "piece" of rope to "length" of rope?   (Your Merriam-Webster makes little, if any, distinction.)

Your advice to me was "lighten up".    Perhaps you should take it, too.   :)

glensky

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2010, 11:51:58 PM »
To: Forum’s members

There, indeed, are some glitches I bumped into—when I read some compositions made by some Forum’s members—some constructions that perplexed me to the bone and made me to react somehow on some of them, to wit:

      1. I arrive home late.
      2. Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.

I have posted them not to offend anyone who has written and posted them but rather to ask the Forum’s members to enlighten and assist me to arrive at the right answer. These are my queries, namely:

      1. Is the verb “arrive” transitive or intransitive?
      2. What is the function of the word “home” in the sentence above?
      3. Is there any word missing in the clause “what you think to the best of your lights.”
      4. If there is none, can anyone tell me whether or not it is a clause? And if it be, what is the
         function of this clause in sentence no. 2?

P. S. Since the Forum is the place where INTELLECTUALS learn more about the English Usage and, perhaps, the place where they stay with in their free-time, I suggest members should, more than ever, be extra-careful about what they are posting. If in doubt really, better yet to get educated opinions from the members who are, at all times, willing to share their knowledge of the English Usage and adept in syntactical and parsing equation.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 12:11:58 AM by glensky »

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2010, 08:25:41 AM »
Now he is taking issue with me again. He adamantly disagrees with my conclusion that in sentences like this one of his, “Five gallons of petrol (is, are) not enough to get you to Sydney,” the verb could either be singular or plural depending on the speaker’s or the writer’s point of view. “You can’t have it both ways,” he insists.

Carillo, just how long do you intend to continue with this fiction?


Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2010, 09:19:42 AM »
If you can tell me precisely what your beef is about that statement, I'd be delighted to give you a categorical answer.

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2010, 11:06:36 AM »
To: Forum’s members

There, indeed, are some glitches I bumped into—when I read some compositions made by some Forum’s members—some constructions that perplexed me to the bone and made me to react somehow on some of them, to wit:

      1. I arrive home late.
      2. Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.

I have posted them not to offend anyone who has written and posted them but rather to ask the Forum’s members to enlighten and assist me to arrive at the right answer. These are my queries, namely:

      1. Is the verb “arrive” transitive or intransitive?
      2. What is the function of the word “home” in the sentence above?
      3. Is there any word missing in the clause “what you think to the best of your lights.”
      4. If there is none, can anyone tell me whether or not it is a clause? And if it be, what is the
         function of this clause in sentence no. 2?

P. S. Since the Forum is the place where INTELLECTUALS learn more about the English Usage and, perhaps, the place where they stay with in their free-time, I suggest members should, more than ever, be extra-careful about what they are posting. If in doubt really, better yet to get educated opinions from the members who are, at all times, willing to share their knowledge of the English Usage and adept in syntactical and parsing equation.


Here are some thoughts of mine about the questions raised in your posting:

1. The verb “arrive” is always intransitive, which means that it doesn’t need a direct object or receiver of its action; we can say, “They arrived,” and that’s that. In contrast, transitive verbs like “slap” always need a direct object or receiver of the action; otherwise, the sentence simply wouldn’t work or make sense, as in this inchoate fragment of a thought: “We slapped.”

2. In the sentence “I arrive home late,” the noun “home” is simply a complement of the verb “arrive,” not a direct object or receiver of its action. A complement is, of course, any added word or expression by which a predication is made complete (as “chairman” in “They elected Jonathan chairman” and “distasteful” in “We thought the act distasteful.”

3. As to your question: “Is there any word missing in the clause ‘what you think to the best of your lights’?” No, I don’t think so. It only seems there’s a missing word because the phrase was detached from this complete sentence: “Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.” In that sentence, the prepositional phrase “to the best of your lights” actually modifies the verb phrase “go on.” This becomes clearer when the sentence rewritten this way: “Just go on to the best of your lights with what you think.”

4. No, “what you think to the best of your lights” isn’t a clause but a phrase, although the subordinate clause “what you think” is embedded in that phrase as the object of the preposition “with” in the complete sentence, “Just go on with what you think to the best of your lights.”   

Now, as to your postscript, let me just clarify that Jose Carillo’s English Forum is not meant to be an exclusive haven for intellectuals or experts, whether in English grammar or any other discipline. It’s for everybody who wants to improve his or her English proficiency or who wish to share his or her English expertise with learners. Forum members can therefore freely post their assertions, questions, thoughts, and doubts about English grammar and usage in the discussion boards, with the expectation that other Forum members—not necessarily the moderator (that’s me)—will make an appropriate instructive or corrective response. There’s really no need to be too cautious or too careful in one’s postings in the Forum; all that’s needed is an open mind willing to be helped or willing to help others in matters of English grammar and usage.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 12:08:12 AM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2010, 04:49:02 PM »
My beef, to use your quaint Americanism, is simply this:  the statement is a lie!

As you well know, I have no quarrel with you over the singular vs plural argument; I agree with you.  (By the way, the shortened statement you used in the Times is not mine, as you allege; it is a quote that I merely provided for discussion.   You are well aware of that fact.)

As all Forum readers know by now, my "beef" is your refusal to acknowledge that you gave the tick of approval to Glensky's nomination of the subject in the sentence we were discussing, a nomination at odds with your own earlier nomination.  "Many gallons" vs "petrol", to refresh your memory.

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2010, 05:46:23 PM »
To make that blatant accusation, maxsims, it looks like you have grossly misappreciated the facts and the nature of our discussions and your role in it. You say, "I have no quarrel with you over the singular vs plural argument; I agree with you," but you have actually been so confrontational and disagreeable most of the time over that issue, even nitpicking on a lot of tangential things like a missing comma and things of that sort. You certainly had not made it clear that you agreed with me on anything; in fact, when you resurfaced in the Forum after a long absence, it seemed to me that you were acting like a blind bull let loose on a china shop, smashing everything in its path.

I truly value your active participation in the Forum, maxsims, but I suggest you cool down and be more circumspect with what you say here and how you say it. Indeed, during the past several days, a number of Forum members had actually asked me in private why you're so confrontational, but I've always deflected the issue by telling them that it's just your way and that you don't really mean to be that mean when you disagree with someone or when someone disagrees with you.

Having said that, maxsims, let me now conclude this posting by saying that I actually have no quarrel with you on anything. Everything to me is academic and par for the course. You remain most welcome in the Forum but I beg you to make a stronger effort to help me make it a less scary place for members, particularly the new ones; they should be able to ask questions or express their views about English grammar and usage without being browbeaten or shamed into submission. In short, if there are times that we must grapple with our private demons, let's do it privately outside the Forum's discussion boards. I think you'll agree with me that the Forum members deserve a friendly, pleasant, and supportive atmosphere whenever they find time or have a need to join the discussions here. 8)

     
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 05:50:02 PM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2010, 06:53:27 PM »
My dear Joe,

It is enormously difficult to remain polite in the face of your continuing refusal to answer a simple question.

Which, Forum members will again note, you have done again!   

Neither have you refuted my claim that your statement in the Times is wrong, incorrect, false, in error, misleading etc.(take your pick).

By the way, where did "blind" (as in blind bull in a china shop) come from?   The only time I've encountered this expression was in a rather course rock song.   

glensky

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2010, 10:42:27 PM »
To: The Forum's Members

I agree with Joe’s explanation as far as my second sentence is involved. Really, it is a very well-said explanation, and, indeed, I can’t ask for more. However, with respect to my first sentence, I’m a little bit confounded because I can’t see how the word “home” becomes the complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” If it be a complement, what kind of complement may it be? This is the question, and I invite all, including Maxsims the Red Bull, to participate to solve this quandary if there be any... If there be none, tell me straight to my face by giving me substantially profound explanation.

Certainly and notably, I never dare hint that the Forum has its own exclusivity. I, rather, have emphasized other notional insight than what other has perceived. As the Forum’s members can see, the word “intellectual” ought to be interpreted in consideration of the entire subordinate clause where it is found. Only then, its meaning is complete and intellectually workable.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 12:05:01 AM by Joe Carillo »

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2010, 11:55:35 PM »
My dear Joe,

It is enormously difficult to remain polite in the face of your continuing refusal to answer a simple question.

Which, Forum members will again note, you have done again!   

Neither have you refuted my claim that your statement in the Times is wrong, incorrect, false, in error, misleading etc.(take your pick).

By the way, where did "blind" (as in blind bull in a china shop) come from?   The only time I've encountered this expression was in a rather course rock song.   


ANNOUNCEMENT:

Due to his intractable and disruptive behavior in the Forum, we are banning maxsims from the discussion boards for a period of one month effective immediately. We are constrained to do this to protect the Forum from being compromised by seriously immoderate language and recriminatory behavior.

Joe Carillo

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Re: Subject-Verb Agreement?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 01:03:02 AM »
To: The Forum's Members

I agree with Joe’s explanation as far as my second sentence is involved. Really, it is a very well-said explanation, and, indeed, I can’t ask for more. However, with respect to my first sentence, I’m a little bit confounded because I can’t see how the word “home” becomes the complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” If it be a complement, what kind of complement may it be? This is the question, and I invite all, including Maxsims the Red Bull, to participate to solve this quandary if there be any... If there be none, tell me straight to my face by giving me substantially profound explanation.

You’re not alone in being confounded by my statement that in the sentence “I arrive home late,” the noun “home” is actually a complement of the intransitive verb “arrive.” This state of affairs is actually a very slippery thing that’s not usually discussed in general English grammar. In linguistics, however, “home” in that sentence construction is called a predicative adjunct or optional complement. The predicative adjunct is defined as a predicative expression that conveys information about the subject but is not the main predicate of the clause. The predicative adjunct works in two ways:

1. As a depictive secondary predicate, as the adjective “black” in “We drink our coffee black.”
2. As a resultative secondary predicate, as the adjective “blue” in “We painted the wall blue.”

Like “black” and “blue” in the two sentences above, “home” in “I arrive home late” is an optional complement because the sentence can actually stand without it: “I arrive late.” Both “black” and “blue” are also optional in their respective sentences: “We drink our coffee.” “We painted the wall.”