Author Topic: Present or Past Conditional?  (Read 6159 times)

curiouscat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Present or Past Conditional?
« on: May 25, 2010, 10:26:45 PM »
Hi,

    Here's the situation:

    A buyer hands a large bill to two old folks selling xmas trees by the road side. Husband realizes he left his fanny pack inside the trailer, says that he'll be getting it, comes back out with it in hand, finds out that the the buyer had already left, the sale was lost, wife was upset, to which she says to him:

"If you had had your fanny pack around your waist where it belonged, they wouldn't have enough time to change their mind."


    1) Does the second phrase sound awkward?
    2) Since he now has a fanny pack with him, does the Present Conditonal apply or Because he didn't have his fanny pack with him then, the Past Conditional should work?



Joe Carillo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4657
  • Karma: +207/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Present or Past Conditional?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 11:39:34 PM »
Not only does the second phrase of the sentence sound awkward but, along with the main clause itself, it is grammatically flawed. The correct construction of that conditional sentence should be as follows:

"If you had your fanny pack around your waist where it belonged, they wouldn't have had enough time to change their mind."

As corrected, the conditional modifying phrase is in the simple past tense, and the main clause is in the negative form of the past conditional. The main clause couldn't be in the present conditional because the condition of "not having the time to change their mind" no longer subsists up to the moment of the wife's speaking; in fact, the buyers had already changed their mind and had left by the time the husband came back with his fanny pack.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 07:53:00 PM by Joe Carillo »

curiouscat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Present or Past Conditional?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 10:22:01 PM »
I just found that what I had thought was the Past Unreal Conditional is actually the Present Unreal Conditional.

I am confused since the structure of the Present Unreal Conditional uses the simple past tense:
 If ... Simple Past ..., ... would + verb ...][... would + verb ... if ... Simple Past ...]

1) What makes it *present* then?

Also, I gathered from a website (http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/IF6.cfm)
some examples of the Past Conditional:

a. If I'd known you were in hospital, I would have visited you.
b. I would have bought you a present if I'd known it was your birthday.
c. If they'd had a better goalkeeper they wouldn't have lost the game.
d. If you had told me you were on the Internet, I'd have sent you an e-mail.
e. Would you have bought an elephant if you'd known how much they eat?

What I'd like to bring attention to is option "C" in particular. Is the contraction of "they'd" = they had? So the sentence reads:

If they had had a better goal keeper, they wouldn't have lost the game.

2) All other examples, save for this one, only show one "had". When do we actually use two "had's" in a Past Conditional Statement?

Joe Carillo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4657
  • Karma: +207/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Present or Past Conditional?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 01:39:40 AM »
Here are my thoughts (in black text) regarding your questions (in blue text):

I just found that what I had thought was the Past Unreal Conditional is actually the Present Unreal Conditional.

I am confused since the structure of the Present Unreal Conditional uses the simple past tense:
 If ... Simple Past ..., ... would + verb ...][... would + verb ... if ... Simple Past ...]

1) What makes it *present* then?


The past unreal conditional is used to describe imaginary situations in the past; it talks about how, if circumstances had been different, what someone would have done differently or how something could have happened differently. The form for the past unreal conditional is as follows:

[If ... past perfect ..., ...would have + past participle ...]
or:
[... would have + past participle ... if ... Past Perfect ...]

Examples:
“If I had saved enough money by then, I would have bought that piece of real estate.”
“She would have married him if he had not decided to work abroad.”
“If we had stayed in the Philippines, we wouldn’t have acquired American citizenship.”

In contrast, the present unreal conditional is used to describe what someone at present would generally do in imaginary situations. The form for the present unreal conditional is as follows:

[If ... simple past ..., ... would + verb ...]
or:
[... would + verb ... if ... simple past ...]

Examples:
“If I spoke better English, I would apply for a call center job.”
“We would live in Vancouver if we moved to the United States.”
“She would excel in class if she didn’t play computer games too much.”

Take note that in the present unreal conditional, the speaker talks of what he or she (or someone else) would do at the present time under an imaginary or unreal situation. In the past unreal conditional, on the other hand, the speaker talks of what he or she (or someone else) would have done sometime in the past under an imaginary or unreal situation during that time in the past.

Also, I gathered from a website (http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/IF6.cfm)
some examples of the Past Conditional:

a. If I'd known you were in hospital, I would have visited you.
b. I would have bought you a present if I'd known it was your birthday.
c. If they'd had a better goalkeeper they wouldn't have lost the game.
d. If you had told me you were on the Internet, I'd have sent you an e-mail.
e. Would you have bought an elephant if you'd known how much they eat?

What I'd like to bring attention to is option "C" in particular. Is the contraction of "they'd" = they had? So the sentence reads:

If they had had a better goal keeper, they wouldn't have lost the game.

2) All other examples, save for this one, only show one "had". When do we actually use two "had's" in a Past Conditional Statement?

Yes, the form “they’d” in the sentence “If they’d had a better goalkeeper they wouldn’t have lost the game” is a contraction of “they had,” so that sentence would read in full as follows:

“If they had had a better goalkeeper they wouldn’t have lost the game”

We will recall that the word “have” can either be an operative verb that means “to hold or maintain as a possession, privilege, or entitlement,” as in “to have a car” and “to have breakfast,” or a verbal auxiliary, in which case “have” or its inflections (“has,” “had”) are used with the past participle to form the present perfect tense (“has taken”), past perfect tense (“had taken”), or future perfect tense (“will have taken”). 

When “have” is used as a main verb in a sentence, its past perfect tense takes the form of “had had,” as in “She had had breakfast by the time we reached home.” Usually, in sentences using the form “had had” like the example just given here, the trigger for the past perfect are the time subordinators “when,” “until,” and “by the time.”

Here are three more examples of sentences using the “had had” form:

“The lost mountaineers had had nothing to eat for five days until they were rescued last week.”
“After she’d had a nap, she felt very much rested.”
“If I’d had another opportunity then, I would’ve applied for a US visa.” 

The thing about the “had had” form is that in many instances, it sounds somewhat awkward when spoken. For this reason, many speakers would rather use its contracted form for ease of articulation, as in “she’s had a nap” and “I’d had another opportunity.” In informal usage, in fact, many people simply get rid of the first “had” and construct the sentence in the simple past tense. Strict grammarians obviously will find fault with that omission, but doing it usually doesn’t seriously detract from the intended meaning of the sentence, as the following sentences show:

“The lost mountaineers had nothing to eat for five days until they were rescued last week.”
“After she had a nap, she felt very much rested.”
“If I had another opportunity then, I would’ve applied for a US visa.”