Author Topic: ..than what..  (Read 8554 times)

maxsims

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..than what..
« on: December 29, 2009, 07:56:45 AM »
"...which indicates a much stronger break in the thought or structure of the sentence than what a pair of enclosing commas can provide."

Have I mentioned that, in my country at least,  the term "than what" is frowned upon in most circles.  The "what" is felt to be unnecessary.

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 09:15:16 AM »
Yes, I do remember you mentioning that usage in the Forum at one time, but I would think it's informal or colloquial at best. In that sentence, the relative pronoun "what" is supposed to stand for the antecedent noun "break" as the operative subject of the relative clause "what a pair of enclosing commas can provide." It is meant for grammatical and structural clarity in the sentence.

Now see what happens when we knock off "that" from that sentence:

"...which indicates a much stronger break in the thought or structure of the sentence than a pair of enclosing commas can provide."

The noun phrase "than a pair of enclosing commas" now looks like the operative subject of the relative clause. That's obviously an absurd state of affairs from a formal standpoint. This is why dropping that "what" is a big no-no to strict grammarians--one that could give them apoplexy and incline them to flunk students who commit that grammatical crime. I may not have that great a sympathy for their strictness, but that strictness admittedly has great pedagogical value.

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2009, 10:56:51 AM »
Hmmm...I would have thought that "a pair of enclosing commas can provide" is the operative subject, and that "than" is the conjunction introducing the second element of a comparison.

However, if the strict grammarians see it differently than what I do, who am I to argue..?   :D

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 04:16:49 PM »
That would be the idea if the function word "than" is working as a conjunction in that sentence, but it isn't; it's working as a preposition instead to indicate a comparison. In any case, the construction you suggested knocking off the relative pronoun "what" would be perfectly workable if we make the phrase "a pair of enclosing commas can provide" the second element of the comparison--but without the verb phrase "can provide" at its tail end, as follows:

"...which indicates a much stronger break in the thought or structure of the sentence than a pair of enclosing commas."

Do you agree, maxsims?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 07:18:54 PM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 05:31:01 PM »
Indeed I do!   ;D

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 11:46:28 AM »
Errr..whatever happened to Shakespeare "stirring in his grave"?      ;D

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 12:31:23 PM »
I have no recollection what happened to Shakespeare. Can you refresh my memory?

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 01:07:43 PM »
It was a subhead like "Shakespeare must be stirring his grave" and it appeared under one of the topics on your webpage about two months ago.     I said to myself, "I must berate Joe over that."   But, it disappeared smartly, as though someone had beaten me to the punch.

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 03:15:36 PM »
Oh, my, I couldn't even remember the topic! I used the "Search" function a while back and the only reference I could find about "Shakespeare stirring in his grave" was your entry today. Anyway, maxsims, all I could think of by way of a grammar problem in that phrase are two possibilities: a missing preposition, or a wrong choice between "in" and "on." If it was a missing preposition, it must have been a typo; if I didn't use "in," then I must have been inadvertently in error. The correct preposition is "in"--unless the British insist on "on" as they do in certain cases of that preposition usage. :)

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2009, 03:33:58 PM »
The neurons in my brain have finally found the right connections. The usage you are referring to wasn't a posting in the Forum; it turns out to be part of my weekly alert to Forum members for December 12-18, 2009. The pertinent portion is as follows:

THIS WEEK IN THE FORUM (December 12–18, 2009):
•   My Media English Watch: When Media’s Figurative Language and Body English Go Out of Bounds (How flawed journalism can lurk in grammar-perfect stories)
•   Badly Written, Badly Spoken: Why Fight the Wrong Enemy? (The economy’s not the problem, stupid!)
•   Essays by Jose Carillo: Reductions to Give More Punch and Zing to Prose (From clause to phrase and from phrase to single adjective, if possible)
•   How Good is Your English?: How Criterion-Referenced Tests Can Help Improve Your English (You can work your way up to really great English!)
•   News and Commentary: Young People in UK Now Among Least Educated in Developed World (William Shakespeare must really be stirring in his grave!)

So what was the problem you wanted to berate me about?



maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2009, 04:56:57 PM »
"•   News and Commentary: Young People in UK Now Among Least Educated in Developed World (William Shakespeare must really be stirring in his grave!)..."

When I was a young man (not all that long ago!), upset dead people were said to turn in their graves.    With the Americans' love of hyperbole, we now occasionally hear spin.    But this is the first time I've encountered stir.

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2009, 05:44:06 PM »
And I'm afraid it won't be the last, maxsims. The expression "stirring in his grave" actually enjoys worldwide currency. As of this moment, Google lists 282,000 entries for "stirring in his grave" alone--not to mention its variants like "stir in her grave," "stir in their graves," and "stir in the grave." Time and English usage must have been passing by much faster than we thought. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:22:18 AM by Joe Carillo »

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2009, 06:37:41 AM »
Variants that are changes for change's sake and which add nothing to the language!

Joe Carillo

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 07:24:41 AM »
Sic transit lingua!

maxsims

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Re: ..than what..
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2009, 07:43:58 AM »
Joe Carillo, I just noticed this on your "other" site....

"...I was quietly happy just to see that little piece of mine still alive and relevant even after the passing of the years, but I was truly delighted when I received a very touching congratulatory e-mail for it from a fellow editor and writer in Wales in the United Kingdom. Jude Roland, who runs a professional writing service in Monmouthshire, wrote me a note so evocative about the travails of putting other people’s English writing into good shape that I have decided to share it with Times readers.

Here’s that e-mail:

    Dear Jose,

    I enjoyed your piece enormously. Much of what I laughingly call my “career” has been spent in trying to de-mystify the corporate jargon and obfuscation of other writers, who seem to feel more important and knowledgeable when they issue incomprehensible communications..."


By writing "...other writers, who seem to etc...", your friend has lumped us all into that category and made us all guilty of incomprehensible communication.    Might I suggest that he drop "other" and the comma after writers?