Author Topic: When it gets tough to decide whether a noun or noun phrase is definite or not  (Read 7283 times)

English Maiden

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Hi, sir!
Thank you for your answers last time. They were a huge help. My question now has everything to do with how to decide whether a noun or noun phrase modified by a prepositional phrase or relative clause should take no article or the definite article "the." In the sentences below, do the prepositional phrases and relative clauses make the nouns that they modify "definite" enough to take the article the, or is the article the not needed or incorrect in these sentences? Or is it optional to the sentences, meaning they work perfectly well with or without the indefinite article?
1. Haters only hate THE things that they can't get and THE people they can't be.
2. Prevent me from knowing THE things that I don't really have to know.
3. I will check out THE hot shopping spots in South Korea.
4. I hate THE people who don't hold the elevator door open for you, no matter how loudly you say "Wait, I'll get in."
4. What are THE thing to consider when going abroad for a business trip.
I read each sentence aloud twice, first as it is written and second with the definite article removed, and both versions of all 5 sentences seem correct to me. Is there really ever any difference? Please help clear my mind. Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:49:49 PM by English Maiden »

English Maiden

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When it gets tough to decide whether a noun or noun phrase is definite or not
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 01:41:20 AM »
Please add to my sentence examples this sentence on the Facebook log-in page: "Facebook helps you share and connect with THE people in your life." Is the modifying phrase "in your life" enough to make the noun "people" definite and hence take the article "the"? To me, it's not since I as a reader don't know which "people in my life" the writer of that sentence is referring to. So, could it be that the correct way to write that sentence is by dropping the article the, as in "Facebook helps you share and connect with people in your life"? And also, please excuse any and all spelling mistakes and grammar errors in this post. I will correct them when I finally get to visit the Forum on a desktop computer. I am looking forward to your answers. Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:48:20 PM by English Maiden »

Joe Carillo

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In all those five sentences of yours, the determining factor in whether to use the article “the” for the object noun phrases is the speaker’s or writer’s prior and specific knowledge or awareness of the fact or circumstance indicated or previous actual experience with the situation described. With that prior knowledge or awareness or previous experience, the article “the” is a must; the modifying phrase “in your life” alone isn’t enough to make the noun “people” definite. Without that prior knowledge or awareness or previous experience, the article “the” is unnecessary or optional to the sentence. Take a look at the two versions to see the semantic difference:

1. With “the”: “Haters only hate the things that they can’t get and the people they can’t be.”
    Without “the”: “Haters only hate things that they can’t get and people they can’t be.”

2. With “the”: “Prevent me from knowing the things that I don’t really have to know.”
    Without “the”: “Prevent me from knowing things that I don’t really have to know.”

3. With “the”: “I will check out the hot shopping spots in South Korea.”
    Without “the”: “I will check out hot shopping spots in South Korea.”

4. With “the”: “I hate the people who don't hold the elevator door open for you, no matter how
    loudly you say ‘Wait, I’ll get in.’”
    Without “the”: “I hate people who don't hold the elevator door open for you, no matter how   
    loudly you say ‘Wait, I’ll get in.’”

5. With “the”: “What are the things to consider when going abroad for a business trip?”
    Without “the”: “What are things to consider when going abroad for a business trip?”

In the case of the Facebook statement you quoted, the article “the” is absolutely needed for the phrase “people in your life,” as follows “Facebook helps you share and connect with the people in your life.” With that “the,” the reference is only to the important people in your life—the people that particularly matter to you. Without that “they,” the reference is to all the people you’ve associated or gotten in touch with in your life, no matter how trivial or inconsequential the association or contact. We can be sure that Facebook didn’t mean it this way, for it would mean connecting with practically all of the people who’ve figured in our life—a staggering number that could be in the tens or hundreds of thousands. Friending all of them would hideously overwhelm even an unabashedly mass-friending medium like Facebook.

English Maiden

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When it gets tough to decide whether a noun or noun phrase is definete or not
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 03:05:15 PM »
Thanks again and again for your prompt answers to my grammar queries. I somehow understand what you mean, but I wouldn't say I completely understand the hints you provided. Isn't it that the only way a noun becomes definite in speech and in writing is if it is known to both the speaker/writer and the listener/reader? Suppose I tweet "I visited THE hot shopping spots in South Korea," given that I have prior knowledge and experience of these shopping spots I'm pertaining to. But if I'm the only one who knows about the shopping spots I'm talking about in that tweet, wouldn't it leave my readers or followers confused and guessing about which shopping places I'm referring to? And so on that note, would it be more appropriate to not use the article the at all?

Joe Carillo

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At the outset, assuming that they are strangers to each other, the only thing commonly known between the speaker/writer and the listener/reader is language—how it works and the meanings that arise from the various combinations of its words. There is therefore no way for the listener/reader to know precisely what’s in the speaker’s/writer’s mind—in particular, whether a noun used is meant to be definite or indefinite—until he or she has written the statement to begin with.

Now, when you tweet “I visited THE hot shopping spots in South Korea,” the reader on Twitter obviously will perceive you as someone who wants to make the impression of being extremely knowledgeable about the hot shopping spots in South Korea, having presumably visited all or most of them. It makes no difference whether your reader knows everything or doesn’t know anything about those hot shopping spots, or whether you are just making a tall claim to begin with. And there need not be any confusion or guessing about that declaration of yours, because it’s not as if you made that statement ex cathedra—not subject to clarification or challenge like a papal edict. In fact, if the Twitter reader (who just might happen to be a well-informed Seoul resident) is interested at all in your tweet, he or she will likely tweet back: “Precisely which shopping spots are those? And how do you know they are ‘hot’?” Then a real conversation starts on Twitter wherein you’ll be obliged to support your contention that you have indeed “visited THE hot shopping spots in South Korea.” Since it’s highly improbable that you’ve visited all or most of those ‘hot’ shopping spots, you’d likely be forced to scale down your claim to, say, “Well, I actually visited only four of them in Seoul and I thought they were ‘hot’ because there were so many people in them…” Then you may get a follow-up tweet like, say, “Which four did you actually visit? And how big was the crowd in each of them during your visit?” And the Twitter conversation continues until the reader and you have clarified and exhausted the subject to your mutual satisfaction.

My point in the rather elaborate explanation above, English Maiden, is that you really shouldn’t put too much store in a single sentence or two as the be-all and end-all of communicating an idea—which I’m afraid is the communication culture that Twitter inadvertently promotes. Because of the 140-word limit to each tweet, the tweeter is constrained to give an unwarranted sense of factuality or finality to every tweet he or she makes. In a real-world conversation, however, everything said is at best tentative, subject to being qualified or modified for greater accuracy in the course of the conversation. There’s much less pressure for the speaker to overstate or exaggerate with a strong declarative statement like “I visited THE hot shopping spots in South Korea”; more likely, the norm for that opening statement will be the more unprepossessing and modest “I visited hot shopping spots in South Korea”—without the “the.” After all, there will be lots of room to qualify the statement to a level of accuracy closer to the truth. This level of qualification, however, is something that’s difficult to achieve in a medium like Twitter, which I think is much more suited to brief announcements rather than to discussions of complex ideas.

This being the case, for modesty’s sake as well as for semantic correctness, I think it would be more appropriate not to use the article “the” at all in that sample tweet of yours. A bare-bones “I visited hot shopping spots in South Korea” or a qualified “I visited a few hot shopping spots in South Korea” definitely will be much more advisable.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:04:25 PM by Joe Carillo »